Battle of the Atlantic

I doubt it will ever exceed Pacific, not even with any Normandy landing…

I think its a very strong possibility for Germany, and worth exploring.  It would however require a few things to happen:
1.  UK willing to send its RAF to other places such as Malta, Africa, or USSR.
2.  Germany destroying as much of the UK fleet as possible on its first turn.
3.  Germany to have a very powerful Luftwaffe and have it in position in the west as well as soak-offs in the way of SUBS to keep UK from building a fleet in and around the British Isles. 
Since this requires a good performance by Germany initially, Germany to be actively ready and willing to sink anything with the Luftwaffe, and most importantly your opponent to cooperate.  That makes it hard to plan for it at the outset.  I would say start building subs early and often and see what develops…then if possible build surface combat ships if you have a lot of SUBS.

The fact that transports from America can not land in Europe or Africa in one move will make for some interesting and difficult crossings.

America can land in Africa in 1 move, its only 3 spaces away

Or make a stop in Iceland if she wants to go to Europe/Scandinavia.  :-)

@savage:

America can land in Africa in 1 move, its only 3 spaces away

Africa is four spaces away from the US East coast

@miamibeach:

I think its a very strong possibility for Germany, and worth exploring.  It would however require a few things to happen:
1.  UK willing to send its RAF to other places such as Malta, Africa, or USSR.

I am very excited about the battle of the Atlantic, and do think it will be a viable strategy.  I don’t think that the RAF will be too relevant, because I expect the battle to be fought primarily with land based air and subs.  I expect the only German surface units will be the Baltic fleet, who threaten moving into the Atlantic more often than they actually do so.

Remember Germany starts with ALOT of subs. So they need to use that + the luftwaffe to destroy the Royal Navy. They also need to keep their own kreigsmarine and luftwaffe alive. if they let the allies built to may subs and surface ships……good bye germany.

What we see with the minor IC in western France, is the fulliment for Larry Harris’s long held dream of giving Germany a chance to contest the Atlantic.
Anyone who owned the orignal PC game of A&A will remember Larry talking about how the allies seemed to dominate to atlantic, and he had been expermenting with putting a factory in western Europe to give the Germans more of a chance.
I think, with the minor IC in western france, he will created the balance he has always wanted. I cant wait to play this game  :-D

@FieldMarshalGames:

@savage:

America can land in Africa in 1 move, its only 3 spaces away

Africa is four spaces away from the US East coast

you start in 104 next to the US east coast move through 89, 90 and Africa boarders 91, its possible in one turn with a naval base

@Clyde85:

What we see with the minor IC in western France, is the fulliment for Larry Harris’s long held dream of giving Germany a chance to contest the Atlantic.
Anyone who owned the orignal PC game of A&A will remember Larry talking about how the allies seemed to dominate to atlantic, and he had been expermenting with putting a factory in western Europe to give the Germans more of a chance.
I think, with the minor IC in western france, he will created the balance he has always wanted. I cant wait to play this game  :-D

Exactly, one of the hardest things about Germany contesting the Atlantic was that all the ships had to be built in the Baltic or the Mediterranean.

I spelled out Mediterranean and then a red line appeared under it. Rats! I thought. I thought I spelled it right. That should be a word I know how to spell. It turned out I had just forgotten to capitalize, lol.

Germany intelligently using its starting Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe at game start plus building a few subs a turn should result in easy dominance of the Atlantic, at least for the first three turns.  When the USA joins the fray, however, its probably going to be a losing proposition with up to 80+ IPCs being dropped on the East coast a turn.  Unless you’re able to maintain a decent sized naval stack, with both German and Italian units joining together somewhere off Gibraltar, the naval situation will probably end up being what happened historically to Germany; relegation to the Baltic and eventual annihilation.  So, if you want to do a navy, you might as well use it where it will do the most good: Operation Sealion.  You will need the collusion of the Japanese player to maintain neutrality through turn 3 to keep the US happy, and Italy will have to pound Britain as hard as it can in Africa early on to deny Britain some NOs and IPCs.

Looking at the initial setup, it appears that a German Sealion strategy can work, but it won’t be very fun and with a smart British player you will probably just barely be achieving even odds if you want to invade England.  It IS possible though, and since Britain is the only power Germany starts the game at war with, it is your best opportunity to KO a major opponent Round 3.  Here’s the plan:

G1:  This strategy centers around Germany’s ability to build from Western Germany into SZ 112.  Build an AC and two transports; or if you’re feeling less adventurous, build an AC and a destroyer and sub (or save the 6 IPCs).  Use the bomber, 4 fighters, and 3 tac bombers plus your starting subs in the Atlantic to clear the SZs around Britain.  Both battleships are in range from Western Germany and your own battleship and cruiser can attack the British and French cruisers in SZ 112; with leftover air it should be cake.  Use your 6 starting tanks to pound France along with as much infantry as you can spare for casualties; if you have any tac bombers leftover use them for the 4s with the tanks.  If you feel a little risky, take an inf and art from Holland into Normandy for the IC and NB.  I think you can use an infantry from Norway and Romania to liberate pro-Axis Finland and Bulgaria and get their IPCs, but I’m not entirely sure on that point.

Hopefully, you won’t lose more than one plane from the carnage, some subs will survive in SZs that will perform convoy raids on the UK, and your main tank stack in France will be intact.  Land your fighters on the carrier to be built in SZ 112, the cruiser, battleship and transport there with the loaded carrier should prove a sufficient deterrent.  Depending on how many fighters the UK actually has on England round 1 (we still don’t know, I’m thinking 3-4 for balance purposes), whether you build the 2 transports or the destroyer/sub combo in addition to the carrier will be based on how well England can respond UK1.  At any rate, a fleet capable of supporting a Sealion will be ready to go.  Pull your tanks and infantry into Western Germany depending on how bad the losses were in France, at least enough to fill the transports you will build.  Germany should have around 60+ IPCs with the money looted from France as well.

Additional G1 strategy:  This is a bit riskier, but it may in fact work better in bringing England to its knees.  The AB in Western Germany allows the starting fighters and tac bombers to reach England G1.  3 fighters, 2 tacs and the bomber buzzing England could conceivably KO the RAF the first round since there’s only 1 inf as a soak at game start.  This attempt would depend on how many UK fighters are present at setup (1-4?), plus you are risking a lot to AA fire.  The remaining fighter and tac could attack only one battleship, too, so the UK could counterattack your fleet building in SZ 112.  But this attack would be the equivalent of cutting the UK off at the knees, since without the 3-4 fighter 4s defending the island, any UK infantry stack will be at a severe disadvantage.  I think it might be worth a shot.

G2:  All right, this is where you make the British player cry.  If the UK player was stupid and built all naval units, use your fleet, remaining subs, and airforce to tear it to shreds in SZ 110.  Your 1-3 transports should be able to get through the carnage and land with enough force to take the island (should only be a few inf plus the 3-4 fighters).  A few fighters and the bomber helping out the 6 land units should do the trick.

If the UK player was smart and built 8 infantry and a tank, you are now facing around 10 inf and 1 tank in addition to the 3-4 fighters the UK starts the game with.  Fairly daunting task to chew through, but not impossible, especially with your French IPCs.  Germany should have upper 50s, if not 60+, IPCs at start of G2.  Depending on whether you have built 2 transports the first turn or the destroyer/sub combo, you still have the option of building up to 8 transports off SZ 112.  However many you decide to build, make sure you have enough armor/artillery/inf to make the crossing count.  Germany starts with plenty of both and two turns is more than enough time to pull everything together in Western Germany for the invasion.

G3:  Right now you probably ought to be building some ground units to start defending eastern Europe from Russia on Round 4, but who cares about that!  SEALION!!!  I’m looking at a total of up to 9 transports (1 starting with 8+ built over 2 turns), with possibly 6-7 armor, up to 3 artillery, 9 infantry, plus your 4 fighters, 3 tac and 1 regular bomber ready to go G3 (possibly more than 8 transports if you built 2 extra transports G1).  The MOST the UK player can come up with is around 20 inf, 3 tanks, and 4 planes after they build UK2 (and this is if they are PERFECT, i.e. pull back everything, and go defensive everywhere else).  With AA hits, the battle should still be slightly in your favor…  But I know slightly may not be good enough for you experienced AA players.  The best part about this strategy is that there are options before you reach this juncture.

If UK builds all land units UK1, you can chicken out G2 (Pysche!), and instead build a moderate inf/tank/air combination with the French IPCs, and either pull the fleet back into the Baltic to use against Russia G3-4, or go kamikaze with it and try to hold as much of the Atlantic as long as you can.  Using the Normandy minor IC you can even reinforce the fleet with subs or a few transports a turn to keep Britain on the defensive; but I think after UK3 taking the island just isn’t going to happen, with the US forces incoming.  The land units UK built in England the first turn should help Italy out in Africa, at the very least.  This pretty much sums up the German Sealion strategy.

PROS:  Taking England G2-3.  Even if you barely manage to take the island (like with 1 tank), you should have enough transports and ground units to permanently hold onto it the following round.  Once the US enters the war, holding onto Britain will definitely be more dicey, but with 9 transports able to reinforce, plus the fleet being easily rebuilt/reinforced from England, the US should be having its hands full.  Japan (in Global) should be having a field day in the Pacific, if nothing else.  Italy should also be having fun in Africa.  The fleet can also be used to invade Russia at Leningrad on a whim.

CONS:  You’re sinking two rounds of IPCs (plus France’s) into transports!!!  Very risky if Britain knows what it’s doing and builds all infantry.  The US and Russian players can make hay out of your naval gamble.  Russia will definitely get huge and dangerous once you pull everything back to Western Germany for the invasion.  Good luck trying to defend the transport stack from the US if you lose all your fighters taking Britain!

P.S.  I’m thinking that sending most of your air units to attack the 4 British fighters at game start might be the best option in crippling the UK’s chances for defending the island.  Even if you lose half your air force killing them off (5? 4? hits) the UK will be hard pressed with just ground units defending.  Guess we’ll see when the game goes out to the public at the end of the month.

Excelent analysis SgtBlitz!!!  I like your “additional G1 strategy”…KO the RAF…with the economic losses UK will experience in Africa, and maybe from SUBs as well, they will be hard pressed to build enough INF to defend Britain, much less build more aircraft/ships.  Some on this site have suggested UK send the RAF to Malta(“Fortress Malta”)…turn 1?  I highly doubt there will be an RAF after turn one with your suggestions here.

Hee, thanks miamibeach.  I love German naval strategies since Allied players never expect them, plus in E40 we finally have an opportunity to play around with the Bismarck!  Might as well make what you can with it.

Your German naval strategy also means an Italian naval strategy.  I think the Sea Lion threat(or promise) might be the standard opening move for Germany.

Sea Lion shenanigans aside, how does this sound for the first few turns.

1. After taking France and a few neutrals, Germany will be at an income of about 50 including National Objectives (say 30 starting, 7 for France, 5 for Sweden and Finland, 2 for one of those south-eastern European neutrals, one 5 IPC NO)

2. Starting turn 2, spend half of that (24 IPCs) each turn to buy two subs and a bomber at the Minor IC in Normandy/Bordeaux.

3. The subs and the bombers can threaten every SZ that UK can build into.  If you can clean out the UK navy in the first two turns, then you can start flooding subs into the open ocean, start attacking convoy zones, and force them to either build up a navy in Canada, or save for several turns to drop a supernavy all at once.

Man, America entering the war is going to prevent Germany from doing anything fun in the Atlantic.  I think we’re going to see a lot of “80 IPCS?!? OMGZ AMERIKKKA OVERPOWERED AGAINST AXIS PLAYERS LARRY HARRIS UNFAIR” threads.

Even with taking over England, UK’s capital IPC loss for one turn aside (+30 something for one round), Germany will still be sitting at only ~50 IPCs a turn and will have to hold off BOTH the US and the Soviet Bear’s builds for the first 3 neutral turns.  At least Germany will have 4 major ICs at this point… :mrgreen:

That would be fun. You capture London with Germany but you still lose to Russia on your doorstep and USA pressuring your newly conquered island.  :-D

Though I’m really thrilled there are convoy rules in the first place, what strikes me as really odd is that the SAFEST place for any convoy to be ( that is where you’re not subject to having IPCs taken away from you by (German) subs and surface ships) is in the MIDDLE of the ocean (No adjacent Island or coastal zone), where historically I’d dare venture they were at their most vulnerable?!

I hope I’m missing something here…