Sad to say, but due to unit and Victory City setup, we are left with that old, tired playout of Godzilla Japan being forced to get into Moscow before the Allies get to Berlin… Assuming a 13VC 1941 game with NOs, here’s what happens…
Germany can’t build fleet or subs, therefore, they push to Moscow
Russia as always defends
UK cannot sustain an India IC, therefore focuses on Germany
Now here is the key… Japan and USA
In theory, Axis can secure a win by holding their own VCs, and having Japan take Ind, Aus, Haw, Kwa, Phi, while Germany takes Kar and Cau
However, if the Allies can secure just ONE of these, then the Axis MUST take Moscow
For Japan, Kwa and Phi are no problem… with the right moves, Aus and Ind can be taken as well
The problem is Hawaii…
Because of that extra SZ around Iwo Jima, and a good-sized US income, Hawaii becomes EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to take and secure…
Since Haw cannot be taken, Japan has no choice but to put pressure on Russia - whether it be through China, Siberia or Persia
Once Japan reshifts their focus to Moscow, USA follows suit and shifts their focus to Berlin
**End Result: The game once again comes down to whether Japan gets to Moscow before the Allies get to Berlin. **
I’m definitely reading on the boards, that there are a lot of people that are sick of this playout. Why should the outcome of a game based on World War II, come down to how Japan does against Russia?!?!? Japan shouldn’t even be in Russia!!!
Now what I’m gonna say next is probably gonna get this thread booted over to house rules, but consider this…
You know that useless VC in Ottawa? Yeah, the one that when everyone heard of they said, “why the heck over there?!?” Well, I think 2 little rule changes can seriously help this game…
1. The Ottawa VC is moved to Egypt instead
2. Special Rule - On UK1, if UK builds an IC in India, they may place purchased units there this turn
With just these 2 little minor rule changes, this would be the effect…
Germany gets a little bit stronger because of less UK pressure (better chance of getting Cau VC without Japan help)
Russia gets a little bit stronger because of less Japan pressure (these 2 roughly balance out)
UK gets a sustainable India IC
Japan is not as much of a Godzilla anymore as India slows them down (balanced by Germany getting stronger)
Now, if US is defending Haw as they should, and Axis does OK securing the Egypt VC, then the game hinges on Japan’s ability to take India which is far more palatable than Japan trying to take Moscow.
Thoughts?
I’m gonna get this in because I’m sure someone’s going to say this suggestion makes victory a lot easier for the axis…
To that, I would say that even though the Egypt VC is much easier for the Axis to take, The sustainable India VC is much more difficult. UK basically gets to produce 3units/TURN here for Japan to deal with. Japan has a harder time getting their 5IPC NO bonus for one of Ind/Aus/Haw.
I would probably modify the special rule just a little more as well…
On UK1, if UK builds an IC in either Egypt, India or Australia, they may place purchased units there this turn (Ground Units Only - INF,ARM or RTL). If UK builds more than 1 IC in these territories on UK1, only one IC can be chosen to place the units this turn.
I suspect India would still be the likely placement, but if Japan shows a hard push to India, UK has the option of fortifying Australia or Egypt (if not hit G1) to deny the Axis that last VC
I would go for these 2 changes, but I would also say that perhaps we should wait a couple of more months before making any changes. Personally, I don’t know why E. Canada, Australia, and Czech-Hungary don’t begin the game with ICs already in place.
.
Delete page 10 of rulebook, put a IC in China and give more value to chinese territories. Make Chongquing a VC instead Ottawa AND delete 2 starting jap trannies.
Yours thoughts on VCs (with the exception of a starting India IC) have mainly been discussed here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12895.0
1. Yes, Cario should be a Victory City
2. VCs become MUCH more important when you lower the VC Cap to 12
3. Not sure I agree with an India IC (esp. one that has its own rules). It may be too great of an Allied advantage. Playtesting in this area would answer questions.
Sad to say, but due to unit and Victory City setup, we are left with that old, tired playout of Godzilla Japan being forced to get into Moscow before the Allies get to Berlin… Assuming a 13VC 1941 game with NOs, here’s what happens…
Germany can’t build fleet or subs, therefore, they push to Moscow
Russia as always defends
UK cannot sustain an India IC, therefore focuses on Germany
Now here is the key… Japan and USAIn theory, Axis can secure a win by holding their own VCs, and having Japan take Ind, Aus, Haw, Kwa, Phi, while Germany takes Kar and Cau
However, if the Allies can secure just ONE of these, then the Axis MUST take MoscowFor Japan, Kwa and Phi are no problem… with the right moves, Aus and Ind can be taken as well
The problem is Hawaii…Because of that extra SZ around Iwo Jima, and a good-sized US income, Hawaii becomes EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to take and secure…
Since Haw cannot be taken, Japan has no choice but to put pressure on Russia - whether it be through China, Siberia or Persia
Once Japan reshifts their focus to Moscow, USA follows suit and shifts their focus to Berlin**End Result: The game once again comes down to whether Japan gets to Moscow before the Allies get to Berlin. **
Why can’t Japan go after the US?
I’ve only played a few games, but why can’t Japan go after the US. They out earn them and have naval superiority. They Don’t need much to conquer China (which is reduced to 1-2 ter by J2) and Aus can fall on J2. Why can’t you make HI, ALA, and WUS a priority?
Afterall it is quicker than the 6-7 turns to Mos. An IC on Man can essentally let you shuck 10-11 units to ALA per turn. A 2nd IC can be used to hold the lines in Asia. Or 2 mainland ICs for Asia, 8 Japan units for Pac.
Has anyone really tried to go after the US?
I plan on trying and certainly see potential to make it my default J strat but I’ve been playing mostly Allies so far.
I can see Japan starting to overload the Pac with ftrs/bom by J3, assuming you go to eliminate Aus first.
Has anyone really tried to go after the US?
I plan on trying and certainly see potential to make it my default J strat but I’ve been playing mostly Allies so far.
I tried this in Revised a couple of games with success, and I think other guy tried also. It should be a lot easier now that Japan starts with 5 trannies and collects easily 60 IPCs a round, probably more.
OMG not another thread that says its about one thing like “my thoughts on the game” then goes into house rules?
cousin_joe, you have read my freaking mind about this topic. I’ve only played the 1942 scenario, but as I’ve played more and more I’ve come to realize that if the US goes full out against Japan, it’s practically impossible for the Axis to win. Even if Japan makes 50+ IPCs per turn, it cannot simultaneously conquer China and India and also maintain parity with the US. At least not until turn 5 or so, by which point the American fleet should be almost insurmountably large.
Hawaii is the lynchpin, and since the US has its turn before victory conditions are checked there is very little chance Japan will hold it at that time.
@Craig:
My groups pushed for Cairo during the early playtesting.
Also, the Romania-Bulgaria territory would have been a nice place for an IC, if it had been bumped up to 3 IPCs.
Craig
Seems sensible to me
I have no idea why they would choose Ottawa
Germany has little chance of getting there
I suppose if UK is sleeping, maybe Italy can sneak in there, but that’s pretty remote
As I said above though, Ottawa as the VC basically makes Moscow a necessary VC for the Axis
Why can’t Japan go after the US?
I’ve only played a few games, but why can’t Japan go after the US. They out earn them and have naval superiority. They Don’t need much to conquer China (which is reduced to 1-2 ter by J2) and Aus can fall on J2. Why can’t you make HI, ALA, and WUS a priority?
Afterall it is quicker than the 6-7 turns to Mos. An IC on Man can essentally let you shuck 10-11 units to ALA per turn. A 2nd IC can be used to hold the lines in Asia. Or 2 mainland ICs for Asia, 8 Japan units for Pac.
Has anyone really tried to go after the US?
I used to think like you do, that Japan has a lot of stuff, and could just bully the US
There’s several problems though
-Japan only gets 17IPC J1
-Japan’s Navy gets spread out J1 to get the territories and the NOs
-Japan must spend part of their income in SE Asia, so even though they may outproduce the US, they can’t spend it all on Navy like the US can
-The extra SZ(new) btw Japan and Hawaii really kills your supply line
-SUBS and AIR are a dirt cheap way for US to deter Japanese agression. In Anniversary, Air outperforms Surface Navy by leaps and bounds
Taking WUS with Japan will not work against any decent player
cousin_joe, you have read my freaking mind about this topic. I’ve only played the 1942 scenario, but as I’ve played more and more I’ve come to realize that if the US goes full out against Japan, it’s practically impossible for the Axis to win. Even if Japan makes 50+ IPCs per turn, it cannot simultaneously conquer China and India and also maintain parity with the US. At least not until turn 5 or so, by which point the American fleet should be almost insurmountably large.
Hawaii is the lynchpin, and since the US has its turn before victory conditions are checked there is very little chance Japan will hold it at that time.
Yes, exactly mpc
And that’s why I believe the existing victory conditions are flawed
Japan will at some point realize the US cannot be beat, Haw as a VC is a lost cause, and they will have to start moving towards Moscow
The current Victory Conditions basically end up necessitating the capture of Moscow
We all know that Moscow was not a target of Japan in WWII, they had a Non-agression pact for goodness sake! :roll:
Really, what the Victory Conditions should do, is allow an Axis win without forcing Japan to go after Moscow
Here’s how I see it with Cairo replacing Egypt as a VC…
**If Germany gets 2 out of 3 of Kar, Cau and Mos
and Italy gets 1 out of 1 of Egy
and Japan gets 2 out of 3 of Ind, Aus and Haw…
Then Axis succeeds in all 3 theaters and that should be an Axis Victory**
Most important of all though, Japan stays focused on Asia/Pacific and not on Moscow
Glad to see the C_J playing the new game.
