mountainous/snowy defender bonus

[tekkyy]

Land units defend with +1 bonus in mountainous or snowy territories.

mountainous:
Southern Europe, Norway, Persia, China, New Guinea, New Zealand, Gibraltar
(neutrals: Switzerland, Spain, Turkey, Afghanistan, Mongolia, Peru, Argentina)

snowy:
Soviet Far East, Alaska, Greenland

Mountainous criterias/assessments would be:
*% mountainous
*% extreme mountains
*population centres locations

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Any thoughts?

I am thinking...

*bonus should only apply to infantry, or first cycle of combat only
*add Japan, Kenya, Algeria, Mexico to mountainous
*add Evenki National Okrug to snowy

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Detailed topographic world map:
thumb
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/World-map-2004-cia-factbook-large-2m.jpg/800px-World-map-2004-cia-factbook-large-2m.jpg
hi-res
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/World-map-2004-cia-factbook-large-2m.jpg

EDIT: fixed the thumb URL

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Siberia would probably include: Soviet Far East, Yakut and Evenki National Okrug.

Added to that Scandinavia (Norway), Karelia (Leningrad) and Archangelsk for snowy.  I don't think I'd include Alaska, the parts invaded wouldn't necessarily be that drastic a temperature change.


Mountainous, dunno.  I'd rather give everyone infantry defending at 3 for the first round when defending their capitol. 

[cyan]

Sinkiang should be mountians
snowy: karerilia, norway, west russia, moscow, archanlesk, yakut, evenki,
and maybe have tropical for like southeast asia.

[tekkyy]

Siberia would probably include: Soviet Far East, Yakut and Evenki National Okrug.

Added to that Scandinavia (Norway), Karelia (Leningrad) and Archangelsk for snowy.  I don't think I'd include Alaska, the parts invaded wouldn't necessarily be that drastic a temperature change.

Snowy

http://www.climate-charts.com/images/world-temperature-map.png

Yeah I am thinking the same Siberia as that list now. I was previous thinking Yakut includes enough warmer areas south but no its doesn't.

West of Urals (Norway, Karelia, Archangel Russia) seems to cold but not extreme enough.
They looked to be just like the warmer parts of Canada to me.

Mountainous, dunno.  I'd rather give everyone infantry defending at 3 for the first round when defending their capitol. 

But you at least feel every cycle is too much a defensive terrain bonus then?

Sinkiang should be mountians
snowy: karerilia, norway, west russia, moscow, archanlesk, yakut, evenki,
and maybe have tropical for like southeast asia.

I didn't put Sinkiang as mountainous because it (like South Africa) seems to be just mostly high plains rather than mountains right?

Do you agree with Japan, Algeria and Kenya?
Or even Italian East Africa?

Though IEA has plains on the coast.
In that sense, Argentina should be removed.

[cyan]

You need something to represent the difficulty of Japan conquering China and I think that would be a great way to do it other than dividing the land up.
but for mountainous it would be Sinkiang, Norway( in addition to snowy) , western canada  (rockies), algeria, italian east africia, Persia,  and your neutrals: Switzerland, Spain, Turkey, Afghanistan, Mongolia, Peru, Argentina

the reason why those russian territories should be snowy is because of the general winter thing. Also if you have snowy then you have to have turns. like on turn 2, 5, 8, 11 etc. snowy takes place.

[tekkyy]

mountainous

looking at the map again, take away the the the desert then Sinkiang is half mountains and also ones of extreme height too
so I guess Sinkiang can be mountainous

yeah Italian East Africa actually has more extreme height mountains then Kenya...I was just thinking it had plains
but then I probably shouldn't use that measure or Argentina and New Guinea wouldn't fit
so yes IEA instead of Kenya mountainous

West Canada, Western US, and Mexico all seems to be 75%+ mountains
the benchmark is also whether the population centres are in the mountainous regions
this seems to be true for Western Canada and Mexico?

you didn't mention Japan
you don't agree with Japan being mountainous?

we seem to be in consensus for the neutrals

snowy

I feel regions West of Urals is not snowy for enough of the year

for example with Moscow (wikipedia) the "Average Low" is not below 0C from Apr to Oct
so its snowy only 5 of 12 months

compared to Alaska, which Jen considers only a marginal candidate
even the warmer region, where largest city Anchorage is located
its "Normal Low" is below 0C from Oct to Apr
so its snowy for 7 of 12 months

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Yes, more than one round seems a bit extreme, to me.

Here's my rationale:

Capitols are probably built up with bunkers, barricades, trenches, reinforced buildings, strong infrastructure for communication, closed communication lines, closed supply lines, etc.  However, on the first wave of the attack your attacker is hitting you with artillery barrages, bombers, fighters and rolling through with tanks.  That means you'll be losing a lot of your defensive fortifications, and thus, be reduced to defending like any other territory.

Secondly, from a mechanics stand point, having all infantry defend at 3 or less after the first round would seriously stop capitol assaults.  It's too powerful.  Even Atlantic Wall and Fortress Europe (and Dug-In Defenders) are limited to a first round defensive boost, probably for the same reason.

Lastly, Dug-In defenders are already a rule.  We're just expanding that to include capitols, which makes sense because of point 1.




Further thoughts on "snowy" terrain.  I don't think I'd use that at all.  Instead, assuming the point was to lend Russia some aid, why not just state that only Russian tanks may blitz through red territories? (as defined as painted red on the board, not captured by Russia.)

This would stop England and America from blitzing as well as Germany and Japan, but it would hamper Japan more (not critically) then any other nation.

[cyan]

mountainous
West Canada, Western US, and Mexico all seems to be 75%+ mountains
the benchmark is also whether the population centres are in the mountainous regions
this seems to be true for Western Canada and Mexico?

you didn't mention Japan
you don't agree with Japan being mountainous?

I said western canada. I say no to western US because the major cities are on the coast.  any invader of the west could care less about Colorado, New mexico and all that.  Your right Mexico should be mountainous.  I accidently left Japan out but high it should be mountainous. 

and I love Jenn's idea of making only Russia being able to move more than one space in red territory.

[tekkyy]

and I love Jenn's idea of making only Russia being able to move more than one space in red territory.

oh whats that about?
because others can't handle the cold weather?

[Cmdr Jennifer]

No, just that the Russians knew the terrain better so knew where to drive and where not to drive while other nations (specifically Germany) were busy getting stuck in the med and permafrost.

[tekkyy]

yeah
it could have been pretty fun too if the Japanese attacked Russia
not a walk in the park like in game

[Yemble]

Shouldn't mountainous also limit armor movement?  I think if you are going to include physical characteristics to the map that certain other characteristics should be built in...such as the sahara should no long be impassible but should eat extra movement up or something along those lines.  What about heavily forrested or jungle areas etc.?

[cyan]

Shouldn't mountainous also limit armor movement?  I think if you are going to include physical characteristics to the map that certain other characteristics should be built in...such as the sahara should no long be impassible but should eat extra movement up or something along those lines.  What about heavily forrested or jungle areas etc.?

umm the sahara isn't impassible. you'll just die of dehydration. and I don't think tanks would really work in the desert. wouldn't they sink? but your right tanks can't blitz in the mountains.

[Yemble]

afrika corp worked okay fairly well in desert terrain

[cyan]

afrika corp worked okay fairly well in desert terrain

yeah thats why i wasn't sure.