Anti-Aircraft guns: Liberated or Captured

[Perry]

The situation:

The AA in India is captured by Japan.

The AA is now Japanese controlled.

On a subsequent turn, the AA in India, is captured by the Russians.

The territory of India, is Liberated (ie, reverts to UK control).

What about the AA gun? Does it become UK Controlled or Russia Controlled?

Cheers  / Perry

[Bean]

It reverts to its original owner, like the territory.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Actually, I believe that is incorrect.

If you liberate a territory, the gun goes to whomever the territory belongs too.  The only time you take possession is if you take possession of the territory.

So, if Russia moves a gun to India, Japan captures it, and England liberates it, it becomes a British Gun.

[Amon-Sul]

Actually, I believe that is incorrect.

If you liberate a territory, the gun goes to whomever the territory belongs too.  The only time you take possession is if you take possession of the territory.

So, if Russia moves a gun to India, Japan captures it, and England liberates it, it becomes a British Gun.

Jen is correct.

[Pervavita]

as this seams to be contested, can we have a page number (with paragraph)?
this way if debated in a gaming group we know right whare to turn... it's better then saying "well Jen and Amon on A&Aorg say so."

[Mazer Rackham]

Page 25:

If you liberate a territory containing a captured antiaircraft gun, control reverts to the original owner.

Please check the rules before posting!

Bean got it right.

[Pervavita]

see page numbers work great 
oh and can we direct quote the book hear? i ask as on other game fan sites they tell us not to as it copy right infrindgment.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Same Page:

If a territory is captured, any antiaircraft guns there are also captured. They can be used by the capturing player in future combats.

To further complicate the matter, if you liberate a Russian AA Gun and Russia is owned by Moscow, do you make it Russian or the new owner, under Mazer's reading of the OOB rules?



Well, then, let's look at LHTR, which is the rules standard for this site:

Usable by Invading Forces: If a territory is captured, any antiaircraft guns there are also captured. Their new owner is the player owning the territory at the end of this turn. They can be used by their new owner in future combats. Antiaircraft guns are never destroyed, except when a transport carrying one is sunk.

No mention of restoration to original owner is made in the LHTR version, probably because they decided that the original rule was too ambiguous since it contradicted itself in the same paragraph, so they did away with the contradiction. (Another good reason to burn the manual that came with the box and just print the LHTR version.)

This appears on LHTR ver 2.0 Page 24

Page 25:

If you liberate a territory containing a captured antiaircraft gun, control reverts to the original owner.

Please check the rules before posting!

Bean got it right.

Please check the rules before posting!

Bean got it wrong. 

[a44bigdog]

I would say it still goes back to the UK because in this case the territory belongs to the UK

[Bean]

Pg 17 of the pdf of LHTR 2.0

Liberating a Territory
If you capture a territory that was originally controlled by another member of your side, you
"liberate" the territory. You do not take control of it; instead, the original controller regains the
territory and its income. Antiaircraft guns or industrial complexes in that territory revert to the
original controller of the territory.

In response to your earlier post Jen, please read the rules before posting. I am right.

You quoted "CAPTURING" a territory. There is a difference between capturing and LIBERATING. The original post asked about LIBERATING. Clearly, I am right, and you are wrong.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

Page 24 comes after Page 17 and thus supercedes Page 17.

[Bean]

I just edited my post.

There is a difference between capturing and liberating. You need to understand this. You can capture an AA gun, but if you liberate it it goes back to the original owner. Read more please.

[Bean]

In case you don't understand what I'm talking about, Jennifer quoted correctly that you gain control of an AA gun if you CAPTURE the territory; i.e. the original owner of the territory is of the opposing side. That's beyond obvious, say Germany captures Caucasus on G1 and there's a Russian AA there, it becomes Germany's.

What she doesn't understand is that the original poster asked about liberating a territory, and that there is a difference between liberation and capture. LHTR clearly makes this distinction. If you capture a territory, you get the AA gun, but if you liberate it, it goes to the original owner.

This makes me question (again) why Jen bothers to post about rules she clearly has not read, and is reminiscent of the time she confidently declared that 400 aa guns could fire rockets out of 1 territory if there were 400 targets to hit.

[Cmdr Jennifer]

You are still capturing the territory and then you give it over to the original nation if you liberate it.  So whomever the land belongs to, so too, does the Industrial Complex and the Anti-Aircraft Gun.

[Bean]

You are still capturing the territory and then you give it over to the original nation if you liberate it.

No, you're not. LHTR makes a clear distinction between liberation and capture. They are not interchangeable.

Liberating a Territory
If you capture a territory that was originally controlled by another member of your side, you
"liberate" the territory. You do not take control of it; instead, the original controller regains the territory and its income. Antiaircraft guns or industrial complexes in that territory revert to the original controller of the territory.

If the original controller’s capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture the territory, collect income from the newly captured territory and can use any industrial complex there until the original controller’s capital is liberated. You also take ownership of any antiaircraft gun in that territory.

So you see, you either liberate or you capture a territory. You do not do both. What evidence do you have to support your myth?