Russia and Germany allies

[MEGAEINSTEIN]

Russia and Germany were allies during the first years of war until Hitler decided to invade Russia.

If Hitler did not take that bad decision, they both would have won the war

[Lozmoid]

Didn't I just see that posted somewhere before? Please expand on your theory...

[MEGAEINSTEIN]

It is not a theory but a historical fact. Germany and Russia were allies at the begining of the war and they had a pact to divide Europe in two. Due to this pact while Germany was invading Austria and other countries, Russia was trying to invade Finland with no declaration of war from France or England. This declaration of war was made by France and England only when Germany invaded Poland, and the pact between Germany and Russia was on. Some time later Hitler made a terrible mistake, he decided to break the pact and invade Russia. But even when german troops were increasing number on the border of Russia, Staline did not believe that Hitler was going to break the pact.

Another error years later was Churchil and Roosevelt supporting too much Russia with military planes, tanks and weapons and Russia became too strong. When the war was over, Russia was the new menace to Europe and the cold war begann.

[SAS]

It is realized as an established historical fact.  What we want to know is what you suggest for the game...  The only thing I can see that could be changed to make it more "historical" would be to allow the Soviets only to attack neutrals while they aren't at war, but that would simply mean they would end up taking Finland and some of the Middle East territories for the Allies (eventually), just making it harder for the Axis.

The game cannot accommodate the "historical fantasy" scenario of the Soviets remaining allied with the Axis without breaking the balance of power, so it simply assumes the inevitability of Germany attacking the Soviets.

[MrBlack103]

This is one of the reasons why we need individual victory conditions

[BasileII]

@MegaEinstein
This is complete historical rubbish.


@MrBlack103
Individual victory conditions would be too complicated. WWII is usually depicted as the combat of Good against Evil, of Democracy against Fascism. The fact that UK and USA were allied with USSR (which wasn't at all a democracy...) is against this theory, plus the fact that nor UK nor USA were fighting for the liberty of Africa or Asia. In fact, before the war broke out, nobody would have believed that USA, UK and USSR woul become allies. Italy weren't even sure allies for the Germans. The game would become much more complicated and you would have to begin in 1936 or 1938, just like Hearths of Iron or other games such as these.

Plus, it would be an historical nightmare. What were the war goals of UK? To protect what they had? To free the world from fascist evil? What did the Japanese wanted? To free the asiatic people? To destroy the USA? To vassalize China? Too many people would say too many different things and it wouldn't be possible to build the games with clear individual victory conditions.

[thoes426]

I often wonder as to where people get their information! I suggest reading the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich for starters. Hitler was after one thing: World domination, as was Japan and Russia. any pacts made were only a means of delaying the original goal of those three countries and political views.
Thoes426

[BasileII]

I would rather say that Japan was after regional domination (regional as in asiatic, which is still a lot!).

[thoes426]

Agreed! I'm not a perfect historian but at times as i said, i really wonder where people get their info from!
Thoes426

[D_Runyon]

What are treaties/pacts if not attempts to keep another country from attacking you as long as possible (or until you're ready to attack them)?

[CWO Marc]

The fact that UK and USA were allied with USSR (which wasn't at all a democracy...) is against this theory, plus the fact that nor UK nor USA were fighting for the liberty of Africa or Asia. In fact, before the war broke out, nobody would have believed that USA, UK and USSR woul become allies.

This is one of the ironies which Richard Overy points out in his book Why the Allies Won: the fact that the victory of the democratic Allied nations like Britain and the United States over Nazi Germany owes much to Germany's defeat on land on the Eastern Front by Communist Russia.  He argues that the US, the UK and the USSR all saw their wartime partnership as a temporary confluence of interests (the shared need to destroy Hitler), and that it didn't last much longer than what was necessary to do the job. 

[Clyde85]

Given the fact that the Soviet Union now dosnt have to attack the Germans on turn 4 means that perhapse you could see the Soviets leaving the Allies out to dry and being something of a ally

[Talkzic]

the U.S.S.R was planing on invading Nazi territory. Also germany was planing on doing the same. the reason why the both waited was to military perpare themselfs superior than the other. another thing was that germans need raw materials for operation sealion which the russians traded for military equipment. the germans just decided move first and take the russians by surprise which they did

[MEGAEINSTEIN]

If Hitler did not decide to invade SU the last 60 years would have been very different.

Europe would probably has become a german territory, with perhaps Great Britain independent, Portugal, Spain and Swisss half independent and the east controlled by SU (Lituania, Letonia, Estonia,Finland, half of Poland).

The cold war would have been between USA and Germany with two other smaller players: China and SU.

And lets say things as they are: in 2010 the two nations that in terms of economy rule the world are USA and Germany.

[Tralis]

I would rather say that Japan was after regional domination (regional as in asiatic, which is still a lot!).

Imperial Japan's the subject of my thesis, and I've read a number of sources from powerful figures in Japan as early as the 1910s all up to 1940s who've directly cited world domination as a goal.  It was even a saying that the world should be made into provinces of Japan for the emperor. So, I think time frame is important to the discussion. Japan really wasn't immediately gunning for the world in WWII, in fact Southeast Asia was its only real goal. Other ambitions were purely for operational reasons. Japan didn't want Wake to have Wake, it wanted Wake to slow down the Americans. But, I'm sure many of the powers that be dreamed of eventual world conquest. How seriously to take this is questionable. Prince Konoe could rant as much as he wanted about Japan taking over the entire world. I certainly don't think anyone in the government or military seriously intended on world conquest on an immediate scope of time. Mostly they wanted modern Malaysia and Indonesia.

Hitler even could talk about Aryans dominating the world as much as he wanted, I doubt the National Socialists really thought WWII would result in World Conquest with capitol letters. I think they mostly had the goal of dominating Eastern Europe, as Italy the Mediterranean. I'm less familiar with their internal politics, though, to be fair.