@Dylan:
Also thanks calvin I now know how to keep track of AA guns.
You can also use control markers to keep tracked of damaged BBs and ACs instead of having them flipped sideways.
We use red chips for damage.
@Dylan:
Also thanks calvin I now know how to keep track of AA guns.
You can also use control markers to keep tracked of damaged BBs and ACs instead of having them flipped sideways.
We use red chips for damage.
I went out to Dayton last week, my best friend Tim and I (he goes by Buckeyeboy on here) played 6 games of AAP40 from Monday around 7:30 to Wednesday around 7:30. Drank lots of beer, ate many “Lucky Sandwhiches”, and I got to see just how huge the AK Steel plant down there is.
Of the 6 games we played, 5 we played by giving the US their 40 bonus IPCs “immediately” on the turn the Japanese attacked, which was turn 1.
The last time I was out there, we played 3 games by giving the US the 40 IPC bonus immediately, and all three games went into the mid game turns as anybodies game. We stopped there because we wanted to reset and see if the next game would yield similar results. All three games did.
Our aim was to see if by giving the US the 40 IPC bonus immediately, if it would balance the game any. So we were kinda playtesting the idea.
This time around, we played the games just a little further longer, until we could sorta see that one side or the other had gained an advantage, and had the upper hand.
After the first 4 games this time around, we played two that had the Allies having gained a clear advantage, and two where the Japanese had gained the upper hand.
They were all great games too, plenty of battles with both sides in the game.
Then I had the great idea to try playing the game as the Allies agian with the OOB rules. That game went just as every other game we’d played with the OOB rules, the Japanese rolled while the Allies just kinda sat on the sidelines, never really getting into the game full swing.
Then we went back to the “immediate 40”, and had probably the best game yet. We played it to a complete standstill, and ran out of time. It was anybodies guess as to who was going to gain an edge in that game. The last turn we played saw a huge naval battle in SZ37 which saw the annihilation of both fleets involved, which included 3 CVs per side!
Anyway, a pretty good playtest session. 5 games using the “immediate 40” meathod, and they went 2 Allied, 2 Japanese and 1 undetermined tie.
The problem we found with the OOB rules was that the Japanese could attack J1 taking the PI & taking the Celebes. On J2 they took the rest of the DEI. On J3 they took Singapore, and built a major IC there on J4.
By turn 4, both China and Britian were down to earning 4-5 IPCs each, with China nearing elimination in the game. The Japanese would play extremely smart up to that point in the game, conserving it’s forces and not giving the Allies any cheap victories.
Once this point in the game was reached, the Japanese were pulling in 65+ IPCs to the US & ANZACs 65-70 IPCs, and the Japanese were matching US-ANZAC buys. The US-ANZAC forces still hadn’t come even close at that point to making up the gap in strength the Japanese start the game with, and so the game stumbles forward into its end game with the Allies fighting an uneven match.
We played well over 150 hours of the game using the OOB rules trying to figure out how to stop this strategy as the Allies. The game really was no fun to play as the Allies. You even knew what the Japanese were going to do each game, yet there was nothing the Allies could do about it. We came up with some really imaginative Allied moves, but the Japanese start with enough pieces to counter anything the Allies did.
By giving the US their 40 bonus IPCs immediately as soon as the Japanese attack, the game takes on a whole new feel. The Allies are suddenly fun to play.
Most important of all, the Allies can do some serious damage if the Japanese just plod along doing the same thing every game. For the very first time, as the Japanese, we’ve suddenly been watching the Allied moves with a close eye and starting to formulate counter moves to the Allies!
So we’ve played 8 games now with the immediate 40 change, and every game has been a good one.
@Dylan:
So I thought I’d share the game we played last night with you fine folks.
My friend Rick and I tag-teamed as Japan against 3 allied players and before we started we agreed on a few house rules.
- We gave India a fully-loaded carrier off Malaya to protect it’s battleship and transports, ferry US/ANZAC fighters over from Queensland, and generally dissuade the J1.
- We said that as soon as Japan declares war, the US gets it’s 40 IPC bonus to spend that turn.
- We put one extra infantry in every Chinese territory to make them stronger.
It was actually a really good game… India was still going down by the time we had to go, but it wasn’t near as easy for Japan to grab it. The US fleet was actually in a really good position in the Carolines to defend against any attack and threaten virtually every important territory.
SO do you think we went too far, or not far enough, or what? Please do tell.
You made the game balanced congrats. Although, I just wonder how that will work combined with Europe 40?
Kauf was able to do this with only 40 ipcs. Giving UK a Carrier makes them easily capture the DEI, and adding 1 inf to every territory in China makes Japan have to work even harder to wipe them out.
Yeah, that sounds like way too much.
I’m actually going out to Dayton Ohio this Monday evening, and will be there until Wednesday evening, testing the “40 immediately” for two whole days!
Many a beer will meet their demise during that time as well. :cry:
Okay, if you do that, you can only take 1 of the DEI, since you use 1 trans on Shan and one on Malaya. Then, you lose 9 ipc’s for that turn that you would’ve gotten. I don’t put planes on Shan, and sometimes I wipe out the 2 inf in FIC with the air force
Wow, irreplaceable 10 point British fighters being risked to knock out two 3 point Japanese infantry.
I can just imagine the look on the Allied players face the game he does this and both of those infantry score a hit.
I guess you could just set the game up all over agian and start over though.
The consequence of this is that if there were an american ship in the path of the Japanese attacking a UK target, they just ignore it.
There have been some games where it is an issue if the Japs attack later than turn 1
The Japanese attack later than turn 1? Why would they do that? :?
If you do a search, Krieghund has clarifed that it is no longer automatic. It does allow the US to declare war on you, on thier own turn.
If the US were allowed to attack (declare war), and the Japanese were already chewing on the British, ANZACers and the Chinese, why in wide wide world of sports wouldn’t the US declare war?!?
Who cares if it’s not automatic? So it’s optional now, it would be insane for the US to not attack! They’re the big dog for the Allies; they need to have their a$$ in the fight ASAP!
If they didn’t attack at the very first opportunity, then you might as well stop playing A&A and go play Ken & Barbie. :-D
My question is when will the errata for this game ever end!?!
On the 2nd turn, your fleet in unified at Borneo, right?
Not if the British pull out of Singapore on B1. On J1, I have 2 x CVs in the PI, and 1 in Celebes (with fully loaded transport). All fully loaded with air. There is a good chance that between Japanese survivors in Hong Kong & the PI there will be enough troops to fill the two transports, not counting the two troops in Vietnam.
If the Brits pull out of Singapore and move to Shan State, I’d attack them with overwelming air in Shan State, 2 x infantry from Vietnam, maybe one transport load of men to get the BB off shore shots, and land the rest in Singapore. If the British have their planes with this group, it’s game over.
The Brits in Shan State will get chewed like an old bone, half of the British force will be gone, nothing left to counter attack Singapore, and Churchill will be requesting that the British Commander in this theater return to England immediately to face a military court marshall.
That can’t reach india. You may put them off Java, but then the DD or CC can block the route to Z39 and India
In order to keep the Japanese out of Singapore on J2, the British would have to block SZs 36, 43 & 42 with just two ships. The ANZAC DD cannot make it there before J2.
The Brit CA & DD may keep India safe on J3, but they will be toasted that turn and the road will be open by J4, which is crazy bad for the Allies to be in a position to possibly loose India at the top of turn 4.
I think the stack occurs on turn 2. If the Japs take Singapore on the 2nd turn, they have to forego 1 DEI, losing 6 ipcs(9 for the DEI-3 Malaya). Then, China recaptures Yun with 2-3 inf, ftr, UK reinforces with 9 inf, art and planes ANZAC with 1 inf, and you have 13@2 1@3 4@4, vs 3@1 5@3 8@4 or 45 vs 50. However, the allies will be taken cheap and low-defense inf as hits while japan takes planes. In the 1st round, the allies will get 7 or 8 hits, the Japs 8. Let’s say the allies get 7. Japan loses its land units and 4 planes, allies lose 8 inf
now it’s 5@2 1@3 4@4 vs 3@3 6@4 or 29 vs 33. Let’s say allies get 5 hits, Japan 6, then allies lose 5 troops and a plane, japs lose 5 planes. Then it’s a ftr, 3 bmrs vs 4 ftrs. lets say all die. Japan has lost 13 planes, the allies 5. If the UK builds 4 mech turn 1, then that’s an additional 4@2 defendin Yunnan, meaning that the Brits will lose less planes
If the British want to move into Yunnan on turn two, why would I care as the Japanese? Let em have it on turn two. India is wide open at that point.
That British force is now two turns from anything of any value, most importantly, India. Especially if the British build 4 mech on turn one and move them to Yunnan as well.
The IJN can off shore shell maybe as many as 4 times, along with CV air (3) into India.
And if the Japanese take Burma, what 's the point in controlling Yunnan? Even if the Burma road is held, you’re strategy is to exchange Singapore & India so the Chinese can get two extra infantry a turn?
Churchill will shoot you himself. :-D
But kauf, there can easily be 8 UK inf, 1 art from India and Malaya. Then it’s Allies: 15@2, 1@3, 5@4; Japan 3@1 5@3 8@4:
Allies get 9 hits, japan 8(by rounding). Allies left with 7 troops, 6 planes; Japan with 7 planes. They lose
In Yunnan on turn two? I think you’re forgetting that the Japanese move first.
The Japanese move first each turn, they’ll smash the Chinese and any British air before the British infantry would move on turn two.
Those British planes fly to Yunnan on turn one, and they are goners at the top of turn two, you can take that to the bank.
You’d have 4 British infantry in Burma and another 4 in Shan state, with Singapore wide open!
The British occupy Yunnan on turn two, and the Japanese take Singapore and quite possibly India at the top of turn three!
Not good for the Allies; bad for morale.
If worred about a Jap airstrike against china’s starting force, simply put your UK planes with them which will result in japan loosing a ton of airpower.
This is what I was refering to. Unless I’ve read this wrong (and I do that :oops: ), it sounds like this means to reinforce the Chinese who retake Yunnan on turn one with British air flown in on B1.
If the British pull their infantry out of Singapore on turn one and move it to Shan State, I as the Japanese player, would forgo taking one of the DEI islands on J2, maybe even two of them, in order to grab Singapore a full turn earlier. Then I build a major IC on turn three instead of on turn 4.
China and the UK do a massive push to hold the burma road open as long as possible, moving all UK units in that direction along with 4 mech inf purchase on turn 1. If worred about a Jap airstrike against china’s starting force, simply put your UK planes with them which will result in japan loosing a ton of airpower.
That’s your fatal flaw there. The key for Britian to survive until at least 8 or 9 is their airforce. If those planes come out to play, the Japanese player goes after them with everything. I mean it too. If those British planes go to China on turn one, every Japanese asset capable of reaching that zone will attack it. With the British planes gone, India can be taken via amphibious assault much faster than otherwise. The Japanese have the air assets to do this too. The Japanese can commit enough air to that fight to vaporize the entire Allied force in two rounds of combat. The Japanese can get 5 fighters, 5 dive bombers, 3 bombers, 2 infantry & 1 mech into that fight vs 6 or 7 (at best) Chinese troops, and the 5 British planes.
Round one would average 7/8 Japanese hits vs 4/5 for the allies. When it’s all said and done, it’s very likely that the Japanese will have only lost a number of a/c equal to that of the British, which is game, IMHO.
The Japanese are going to still be able to take the DEI on J2, Singapore on J3, build a major IC there on J4, place troops on J5, then assault India directly via amphibious assault on J6. At least two turns earlier than they would have otherwise.
Good poll. I think you could have a different answer depending on the point of view of the two sides.
For example, right now I think the most important SZ for the Allies is SZ54. It is absolutely critical that the Allies be able to operate out of that SZ. The fact that it has a naval base which allows Allied ships to reach all the critical land territories (PI, DEI, Singapore, Guam, Truk, Wake , Hawaii, Marshalls, Marianas) is of the most importance to the Allies. The fact that it has no airbase scramble ability makes it a challenge to operate out of. CVs are needed to provide defense.
For the Japanese, the most important SZ kinda changes with the game flow. Singapore is the most critical until the Japanese secure a major IC there. The PI is an important base along the lines of Truk, for the Japanese to use as an interior line of movement for it’s fleets when shifting to meet US threats.
The one SZ that reamins consistently vital to the Japanese however, is SZ6. Korea is the Achilles Heel for the Japanese, and must not be allowed to fall into US hands to the point where the US have an opportunity to place an IC. That means air control of SZ6 is vital. The US want to get Iwo for this as it allows US fighters and dive bombers to contest the sea batle zone, and it allows US bombers to reach a land battle in Korea (or to bomb installations in Japan, i.e.-> the Japanese airbase there).
**Good poll question! **
I will give this a try next time I play Japan.
Of the proposed game balances I’ve seen (US immediate 40 bonus, no J1 attack, negative J aircraft bid) this seems to disrupt the concept of the game the least.
That’s exactly what we found, that this change was the least impactful toward scrambling the original intent of the games set up.
“Buckeyeboy” is my best friend Tim, and he is the one who came up with the idea. You know, you get to the point in a game where it’s just not balanced, and especially with a game like Axis & Allies with all it’s variables, and you start thinking about what to do to balance it. There’s just so much that can be effected, and I for one was thinking, you change one thing and its going to ripple on down the line. I was thinking that to find what it would take to balance the game, it was going to take a long time and a lot of playtesting.
I’m not saying we’ve hit the nail on the head, but we did give it three shots last week, and amazingly it seems to be what we’re looking for.
I mean, to actually achieve what you were trying to find as far as balancing up this game on the first try seems kinda like hitting the lottery to me. BTW, Tim, if you get a good feeling about any numbers in the near future, send me a PM! :-D
The three games we played were fun, competitive and very much still along the same lines as games we’ve previously played. That extra boost to the US war effort seems to be just right in opening the game up for the Allies without being overwhelming. It also keeps with one of the games main concepts, that being that the US player is still free to choose how to spend the IPCs depending on what strategy he/she wishes to pursue.
Tim very rightly pointed out during one of our phone bull sessions that changing the actual set up by adding pieces, whether by bid or directly, was going to be way too drastic, and was going to change to original intent of the game way too much.
By adding 40 IPCs to the US immediately, the games we played were great. Granted we stopped once we had gone far enough into the mid-game to determine that we had a game on our hands.
I would highly recommend to anyone interested to give this a try. I think I can speak for Tim on this as well as myself too, in saying that we think you’ll like what you find.
May I take the liberty Kauf. OH YEA, he means it. This really did balance the game!
Right on brother! That’s what I’m talking 'bout! :-D
@Yoper:
You mean this?
LOL!!! :-D :-D :-D
That’s what I was looking for!!!
If the Jap fleet is at Singapore, what stops the US from taking Truk, which threatans all VC’s except Calcutta and San Francisco? What stops the US from landing in Korea? You need quite a few planes in japan to stop the capture of Korea, and those planes are needed in the CBI theater.
x4 fighters and x4 dive bombers.
At least by US2, and maybe even on US3, depending on where the US fleet is based out of.
Hopefully, Larry will provide an official change to the setup to make it more balanced, like he did with the original pacific.
That’d be fine with me. :-)
In the meantime, we’ll be playing by giving the US the extra 40 the instant the Japanese attack, to spend immediately on the following US turn after the Japanese attack.
The first three games went well, and we realize that snags may pop up which we’ll deal with as we come across, but so far, so good.
The extra 40 makes the US more of a threat sooner, and forces Japan to defend Japan & SZ6 more, which has come at the expense of the Japanese taking a good bit of it’s air out of China.
That in turn has made China a little more survivable.
Which in turn helps the British a bit.
All of it helps the Allies.
Most importantly though, it made the first three games we played competitive and…wait for it…fun!
Well, it was always fun for the Japanese, beating down the Allies game after game, but I mean fun for the Allied player too. :-)
well from a 17 purchase to rebuild the lost material to 57, there is already a big difference. Time is against the allies when Japan do its J1. But by giving more money to USA asap, that allows USA to be a bigger threat faster, which in turn slows down Japan, which should help the remaining allies. Never tested, just making logic
Robert
Pretty much what you’re saying is exactly what we saw from playing (3) three games this way just this past Wednesday and Thursday.
With a J1 attack, the British loose a BB (20) & x 2 transports (14). The ANZACers have been losing a sub (6). The US loses a DD ( 8 ), x 2 transports (14), a bomber (12), x 2 infantry (6) and a fighter (10). That adds up to 90 IPCs of loses for the Allies right out of the gates.
Not looking at mainland China, the Japanese may lose a fighter (10) against the British BB, and potentially 2-3 land units in the PI (lets sat x 2 inf. and an arty=10). There is a low probability that the Japanese may also lose a DD vs the ANZACer sub ( 8 ).
In a worse case scenario, the Japanese lose 28 IPCs destroying 90 IPCs of Allied units on the first turn.
More often than not however, it’s going to a Japanese exchange rate of 20 for 90. Not a bad way to start the game for Japan.
When you also consider the fact that Japan starts the game with a huge advantage in air units (at the end of a typical J1 attack, the Japanese may have lost one fighter, and the US a fighter and a bomber. At that point the Japanese have 100 IPCs more in air units alone, than the Allies combined) and a sizable advantage in naval units (after a typical J1 attack, the Japanese have somrething like a 67 IPC edge in naval units), we’re talking some serious IPCs.
Think about it, 100 IPCs more in planes; 67 IPCs more in ships; and a 70 IPC opening attack swing all adds up to a 237 IPC advantage for the Japanese! Gimme a freakin’ break!
And some genious thought the Japanese needed Kamikazies too!?! :-o
WTF!!!
So the US gets what amounts to an extra 40 IPCs on the first turn…then that’s it.
You seem to like the fleet being at Truk. What happens, if the US fleet gets to queensland(with blockers to prevent a truk attack), threatening all the DEI and the Phi on Turn 2, before the Singapore IC is built? They’re forced to either fly planes from the mainland, or split its fleet to defend the sea zones.
Fleet at Truk? The Japanese fleet? Rarely if ever. You mean Singapore?
Turn 1: SZ6 Japanese fleet to the PI, Truk fleet to Celebes. At start US fleet to Pearl.
Turn 2: Main Japanese fleet combine in Borneo (DEI fall, 2 x unescorted transports will get picked off). US fleet to SZ 54.
Turn 3: Japanese fleet to Singapore. US can only attack the land portion of the PI with one transport, or any DEI island. If the SZ54 fleet moves to the PI or any DEI island, kiss it goodbye on J4, as the Japanese will land on it like a ton of bricks.
Turn 4:The Japanese fleet at Singapore (now a Japanese naval base, SZ37) can strike as far west as SZ54, as far northeast as Guam, as far southwest as SZ58. They can certainly strike off the coast of India, and can even reach all the way down under Australia to SZ61. In fact, they can reach every SZ around Australia except SZ62.
Oh yeah, and then the Japanese place a major IC in Singapore on J4… :wink:
What is your allied strategy if Japan keeps its fleet together?
Give that man a beer, Because he just hit the nail on the head! :-)
The Japanese can afford to let a few transports get sunk in the process of taking the DEI. A smart Japanese player won’t divide his fleet, or let half or a part of it get picked off. He’ll loose a couple transports, but not fleet units. A couple transports the Japanese can easily afford.
But to answer the question of what do the Allies do if the Japanese keep their fleet together, I’ll tell you what the Allies do in that case. They play to the best of their ability until about turn 7 or 8… and then they loose!
Once Japan gets a major IC in Singapore (J4), start the countdown for the Allies.
So my best friend in Dayton says to me, “Why don’t we just give the U.S. their extra 40 IPC bonus immediately to spend on US1? Instead of making them wait to collect it at the end of their first turn and not be able to spend it until US2? As soon as the Japanese attack and bring the US into the war, right then and there, move the US IPC marker up 40 points on the IPC chart.”
So we tried it over three games yesterday and today, and I’ve got to tell you, they were the three best games of AAP40 that we’ve played. The game situation resembles more of the post Pearl Harbor situation as anything else. So we started calling it AAP42. :-D
We had no idea what was going to be the effect of this on the game, but we were hoping for something simple that would give the Allies a boost and make them competitive to play in the game.
It was my best friend Tim’s idea, and I’ve got to say that I didn’t have much hope that it would work out. You get to the point where you have to start tinkering around with a game like this, and who knows what’s going to happen.
We buy games to have fun playing them, and we don’t want, nor do we have the time, to waste “playtesting” them. That should have been done before we bought the game. Time is just too short these days, and we want to spend the time we get to “hang out” (translated, that means bullshitting & beer drinking).
So after coming to the conclusion that AAP40 is broken, we weren’t going to spend a whole lot of time trying to fix it. It was real close to being called a bust.
We got three games in, about 15 hours of play. The first game went about 6-7 turns in before we stopped to start over. I think the second game went about 8, or maybe even 9 turns in before we reset. In those two games, the Allies were most decidedly in the hunt for a win. We just played far enough into the game to make a determination as to whether or not the Allies had a shot of winning in the game. Then we started over to see if it could happen again. The last game was 5, maybe 6 turns in with the same result.
I would highly recommend to anyone who feels that the game is unbalanced in favor of the Japanese, to give this simple change a try.
THANKS FOR THE PIC CRAIG!
@Yoper:
I think that some aren’t fully versed as to the theory of the bid.
And some just won’t accept the bid concept as necessary.
Or they can’t accept the idea that the game could actually be produced without it being balanced!
It is what it is.
Yeah, I think you’re right. I t did take quite some time for us to come to the conclussion that there was a problem with the game. And you have to get in quite a few games as well, before you can see the pattern develope.