And I’ll have to say that I played about a dozen of games with Axis where my opponent played the double IC strategy, they ALL went the way I said in the previous post (except I usually don’t lose the islands, I’m quite good dealing with naval fights).
Posts made by GCar
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
In standard KGF you do not send more then 8 US units a round to Europe anyway and it takes four rounds to get them to Europe usually. It is definitely not slower to get them on the front from Asia then through the standard four rounds taking way EUS, EC, UK, chosen landing spot in europe.
Say you produce 4-5 in mainland Asia (2sink, 2china or 3 FIC) and you produce 4 Borneo or EI using 2 sets of 2 trannies to move them India/Persia. And you use your fleet the protect the trannies. Here you are in the worst case on R4 in cauc for borneo but much earlier with the mainland units.
I have never got that far in my games, but this is what I tought I would do and it does not look as a too much of a problem to me.
It The thing is that it should take at least 6 turns for the islands (there is no way the US fleets starts going forward before turn 4. So the fastest possible (and we think Japan doesn’t even use a DD to slow you down) would be turn 6, IC on turn 7. Russia is already dead at that point. And against a good player you are for sure slow down one more turn (he’ll do something with his fleet) so that make the IC on turn 8 and the first builds on turn 9.
As for Asia, what usually happens is building on turn 2, trading on turn 3 and taking some countries if you brought LOTS of Russian help, turn 4 likely secruring Chi and Man (or like Japan can only take one back), turn 5 final attack in Asia, likely needed your newly builded tanks. Turn 6, the 5 tanks you built are going to Caucasus… oh Caucasus already as a stack of unit on it… ok I’ll move my tanks to Kazakh. And turn 7 well Moscow is already fallen.
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
Killling Japan’s fleet with the US will be good game if you have contained Germany. The problem is that when you build 2 IC and send US to the Pacific, containing Germany doesn’t happen.
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RE: Sealion
I still like the Baltic AC. It really puts pressure on Allies to go ALL navy for a turn (and still being at risk), or hold on their IPC for an extra turn.
And it is still an investment of only 14 IPC that your opponent will have to sink eventually, risking a DD or a FTR.
I don’t agree there, if UK builds all planes, YOU will have to build more fleet to protect your AC+DD+Trn. See previous post on IPC efficiency for Germany vs UK in that build up fight.
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RE: Sealion
On a similar but a bit different subject, what do you guys think about the AC build on G1 in the Baltic, but with a regular G1 Egy attack ? In my opinion, building planes is a better way to defend the coast for Germany.
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
From what I can tell the land IC strategy is dependent on 2 attacks…
- FIC UK1. This is where the going gets dicey for me, because this is always a big risk, whether you are playing dice or low luck… To get the best odds UK has to commit the cruiser, and really needs that cruiser to hit.
So…if FIC works, then Japan is hurting. On J1, they gotta retake China and counter FIC…so there’s nothing left to go after Buryatia.
Since Japan is going to use everything it has to take these back, it also needs to drop one additional tranny load on J1. If they don’t make this drop, or if Japan goes for Bry instead, then Japan’s situation could easily crumble when the 2nd attack happens.
The rub is that the success or failure of the entire strategy rests on being able to capture FIC…preferably with an inf and fig remaining, or at least with an inf. A large % of the time it won’t work.
- China R2…this is the 2nd part of the Land IC strategy. If you take out China R2, and there are no Japanese troops in either Man or Kwa or Fic (bear in mind the troops in Fic will be hit on UK2), then in that case Axis is in big trouble. Japan must be able to retake China on J2 or USA can build a 2nd factory, and UK and Russia can fly in fighters to protect it.
Now, if Russia liberates China on R2 with several inf remaining, then Allies can think about risking the 3 UK figs to hold it. However, if Japan has just 2 units on the mainland, those units plus the Jap airforce should be able to take down China. In Revised, really aggressive KJF players would sometimes divert a tank from Ukraine…and this option might become tempting in 42. If Russia can secure China R2 with say 3 inf 1 arm remaining, and then add the 3 figs, then they should have decent odds against inf arm 5 fig bmb, or at least be able to inflict alot of damage. Leaving this force intact be will result in either a USA2 China factory or Russia will be able to trade Jap coastal territories…this is money in Russia’s pocket and helps wear down Japan while UK/USA build up. Of course, Axis can still win the game at this point with smart play but it could be touch and go.
It seems to me that the key to beating this as Axis is holding some mainland base that can’t be strafed from the air. Allies, meanwhile, are looking for every opportunity to eliminate Jap ground forces with their air, and then blitz in with tanks from India.
I have won games with Axis where I was completely kicked out of Asia with Japan on turn 4. The point is that Tokyo will NEVER fall as early as Moscow will, even if Japan is kicked out of Asia.
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
@Bunnies:
Re: India/Sinkiang ICs.
Question: Kwangtung transport. If alive, 4 inf plus air to hit India on J1. If not alive, then UK down a cruiser, fighter, or AC in the area. No other possibilities.
If Kwangtung trannie alive, B-ship carrier plus air easily kills 1 AC 1 carrier 1 cruiser. More conservative Japan uses 2 trannies for 6 units on India, next turn East Indies brings attack on India to 8 ground plus air.
If Kwangtung trannie not alive, you still see 6 ground plus air to India on J2, and Jap kills UK fleet in area anyways, without as much air required.
Granted, is VERY easy to defend India first few turns. But point is not simply defense of India, must break Japan. Subsequent turns see buildup of inf at French Indochina and China. If Sinkiang or India attacks, Japan easy to defend. If not attack, Japan continues inf buildup plus tanks, and funnels units to north to gain easy territory. Almost same result for Axis.
If India is strong, Africa MUST be weak, so Germany claims.
Now second node is US goes ATL, or goes Pacific, or split.
If ATL, then Japan unstoppable, cracks one IC then other. No other possibilities with good Jap player; Allied d at Sinkiang and India invariably cost-effective but slow infantry; Germany applies pressure from east, forces three-front defense for Moscow at Sinkiang, India, Moscow/Caucasus front. Not good for Russia. One will fall.
if PAC then Germany controls Africa. It takes a long time for UK to build enough fleet solo to challenge German superiority, particularly Mediterranean. US starts grabbing islands from Japan, but it takes a while; Japan drops infantry to Asia and ICs at French Indochina, then sub/air/fleet stalls US. But key here is Germany is strong, and that Japan can race to hit India/Sinkiang ICs before US fleet reaches. US logistic line is long. Japan’s is short.
if SPLIT then US takes longer to reach key islands at Japan. Possibly too long, giving Japan time to crack ICs.
Quite complete analysis of the Allied point of veiw of this terrible strategy to which I 100 % agree (the analysis, not the strategy).
Let’s hope more novice players read this posts and starts giving better games online !
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
For the India strategy I can admit that it is playable, if only to hold Japan and not followed with a KJF. Russia can’t hold Germany long enough for allies to get to Japan EXCEPT if Germany had a terrible turn 1 and didn’t took Egy. BUT, I think that pretty much any axis strategy (well some more then usual) can win if Germany loses in Egy on turn 1.
Another viable strategy to hold Japan is to build a US Pacific fleet. Those two strategies to hold Japan + classical KGF are in my opinion are the only viable strategies against an axis player who as any idea of what he is doing (aka, going for Russia and Africa as fast as possible).
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
UK and Russia can definitely hold Germany alone if UK is not spending 15 IPC a turn in India. I am not saying that the US can’t go in the Pacific instead of the Atlantic. The problem is that to build 2 IC, you need Russian backup against a Japan player who knows what he is doing. And when sending that backup + building 15 IPC UK units in Asia, you will never ba able to hold any fine Germany player, except maybe if he had absolutely terrible rolls (like the battleship losing to the destroyer in SZ15 or UK winning in Egy on G1). If you are thinking about any game where Germany didn’t took Egy on G1, please don’t bring it to this post. Obviously, even terrible strategies can win in this case.
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
Germany take egypt round 1… .figure they have 2 tanks left. britain takes it back with 3 inf. fighter bomber Cruiser bombardment. and builds fleet in SZ 2. america sends a transport and units to take algieria and builds a fleet and units. if germany didnt add to the fleet in rd 1 they cant do both sides of africa … US has the money to sacrifice a transport for an early deployment into africa… and UK can join them when possible. or wait 1 round and go huge. still depends on the outcome of dice, etc. but it can be done
Ok this thread is about UK building an IC in India on UK1.
If they do so the best they can have in SZ2 (if the lost against Germany in G1, which happens with good odds) is AC, 2 Fig, Sub. If your Germany player doesn’t have planes aimed to kill that, well you are seriously playing with terrible players. -
RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
the allies can stall this and buy america time to threaten the axis. and russia losing karelia isnt that big if they continue to trade Ukraine and hold west russia… and with that german buy germany isnt doing much for africa which means USA and/or UK can feed troops through northern afrrica which takes another 2 away from germany. … but again this all depends on what moves the axis make if germany goes strong on land UK will be forced to go KGF along with america. it also depends on rolls during certain battles. strategy doesnt always guarantee victory if the rolls are not there. it also depends on house rules used… sometimes i forget we play with certain house rules and not direct OOB rules. for example we use 2 hit carriers.
Ok if you play with 2 hit carriers it definitely explain why your UK fleet survives. In the real game (which is what is talked about in this forum) it doesn’t except if you go for Norway instead of Ukraine. But Ukraine is the usual move for the two IC opening since the plan is not to build an early fleet in Atlantic with UK (since there is no IPC to do so with the India IC).
As for Africa, how could Germany not have very good win odds there with no Atlantic fleet sending units there and him just sending two units a turn to Egy ? The best you could have as early allies units is the 6 UK/US1 units. The following reinforcements will take a while so Germany has good chances to have 9 to 11 Africa IPC for some of turns.
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
The problem is that your UK fleet usually dies in 1942 (while it didn’t in revised). Therefore, if UK builds an IC in India and then ground units there, they are losing too much time to get ground units against Germany. And with the US also spending IPC for an IC and ground units in Asia, Russia usually cannot hold long enough against a good axis player.
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RE: Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
The only games where I attacked USA with Japan (without having already won Moscow) is actually against the double IC. It is in no way part of my strategy against it, but I have seen people building the 2 IC and no US pacific fleet. Therefore, after the allies pushed back Japan from Asia the most productive thing I had to do was attack LA. I have to say that the two times I remember getting kicked out of Asia by someone that didn’t made a Pacific fleet (you really need 2 IC to do that + Russian help) I actually took LA and started building 10 units a turn there. Obviously, if the players had been good they’d have protect LA correctly, but hey would they have played that opening in the first place ?
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Double Allies IC in Asia (India + Sinkiang)
Let’s talk about another strategy that I think is terrible. The double IC in Asia for allies. Here is the usual plan I see:
-Sending a bungh of units east with Russia (the stack of 6 in buryatia and some Inf in Sinkiang + even tanks sometimes).
-Attacking FIC on UK1 and building an IC in India.
-Building Pacific fleet with US + an IC in Sinkiang.
-Sometimes followed by sending even more russian units west (To protect Sinkiang).
-Turn 5 to 6 plan : Lose Moscow and concede.Seriously, I’d call this strategy “fun” but I am just tired of seeing that since it is definitely one of the worst strategies available for allies (And I once saw a UK1 IC India + IC Persia…)
How to beat it (If anyone wonder):
-Build an infantry stack.
-At the same time, take Africa with Germany which will gets you to 50 IPC, allies are so busy protecting their IC that they often don’t even try to stop you !
-Swarm Russia with you having pretty much twice their IPC + more air units.
-When you have Moscow on turn 5-6, explain politely that the game is over.Seriously I have seen people doing that an insane amount of time. I know I am on quite a roll about bad strategies :) But this game is not as fun when you just know you are winning on turn 1.
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RE: Sealion
Well obviously the point of the sealion is not only to threaten London. Hence my plan to beat it that I will state again here in a nutshell:
-US goes after Japan.
-Russia goes after Germany.
-UK goes for Africa and building lots of planes.The point is to not build a fleet in the Atlantic. Why ? Because by doing so Germany is losing IPC. The first German fleet builds won’t be expensive because Germany has a bunch of Fighters to lend on his new AC, but quite fast Grmany will be spending IPC to build a fleet that won’t attack anything, while UK planes after they destroy the German fleet will still be usefull (unless both sides just keep building which would be good for the allies, since UK will ALSO bomb Germany, US should match Japan while Russia will slowly overwhelm Germany). Obviously, if the allies starts building a fleet in the Atlantic, the sealion becomes good (well playable). You should really raed my plan on how to beat the sealion. I’m not saying it can’t win. Just that it has terrible odds against the right strategy which is NOT building an Atlantic fleet (see the first post for details).
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Sealion
What do you guys think about the sealion ?
When I talk about sealion, I mean building a fleet in the Baltic (usually 1 AC + some trn) and moving the BB and trn in the Med to SZ 13, taking Gibraltar in the process (Not to let UK kill those ships !). Planes going to WE and Norway, ready for an attack on London. There can be some variations for the number of trn build in the Baltic and the number of ground units build. It is followed by more Germany ship builds.Personnally, I think it is a terrible opening. I am seeing it a lot online and I am on quite a win streak against that. My plan against it is VERY simple. Let’s put it in point form:
-Protect Egypt with ground units and put your fleet in SZ35 ot SZ15 (AC + 2 Fig + Cru + Trn). This will assure you to keep Germany IPC low, UK IPC high, and to threaten the German Med fleet. You can leave only 2 units on Ind.
-Build planes with UK and bring one US fighter to London. Build some Inf if necessary to keep the German amphibious attack on London under 20% chances of winning at all time. Hopefully less while the time goes.
-Block SZ12 with the US Cru. Just to buy some time, 2 less ground unit threatening London is necessary.
-Disembark a bunch of units on Alg on turn 1. Taking Africa is very important and the German trn in the Med could live for a while. You just need extra units.
-US should build a massive fleet in the Pacific and put his builds there. Japan will be able to take a bunch of territories in Asia with UK ignoring him, likely going to 40 IPC, but it will be forced to build a massive fleet not to die to the US. The pressure it will put on Moscow will then be very limited and easy to handle for the Russians.
-UK building planes will get him some Bombers on the board. Bomb Berlin with that, this will keep Germany on low IPC (Germany will need to buy more ships not to lose it’s Baltic fleet). What is therefore happenning in the Atlantic is Germany building a fleet that will never get to London if you are watching every turn the odds on London. While UK is building planes that have the multiple uses to put pressure on the Blatic fleet, protect London and bomb Berlin/Rome. Germany will at some point not have enough IPC to protect his fleet (After the 3rd AC, the fleet costs a lot since 14 IPC doesn’t put 10 defense on the sea anymore but more like 4).
-When Germany can’t protect it’s fleet anymore… well that should be good game.I have NEVER lost against a sealion using that strategy and I played against it quite a bunch of times (I’d say around 10 times online). If anyone thinks he can offer an Axis strategy that would counter my allied strategy and give good odds on the sealion to win, I’d be glad to listen and maybe even try it at some poitn with Axis :)
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RE: A Game Against Myself
@Bunnies:
Allied strategy: Play conservatively until after G1
@Bunnies:
This will be attempted by attacking Norway/West Russia/Ukraine.
Sorry, I had to quote that. I mean until after G1 is only R1 and attackin Nor, Ukr and WR on R1 is the less conservative move you could ever make.
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RE: What is your favorite bid ?
We now give the axis (just germany - none for Japan as they don’t need it) a 9 IPC bid (usually and extra sub in Atl, 1 inf for UK and 1 inf for africa) and 3 national advantages - atlantic wall, jet fighters, and blitzkreig). We also give UK British Commandos but that’s it for the allies. We did this last week and the axis still lost.
Well you are changing a lot of rules. What would be your bid with no rules changes ?
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Russia strategy
The spring 1942 version as now been released for a while and I’m sure everyone’s strategy as now changed a lot with the 1942 rules. So it seems like a good time to review strategy !
To put my Russia strategy in context I have to say that I am really not a fan of KJF.
So here it goes, for buyings I usually buy only ground units with the russians, buying mostly infantry at the beginning to be able to put a good pressure on the Germany/Russia deadzone if the Germans starts to build too many navy. I switch to more tanks havey buyings when the deadzone situiation dictates so.
I also don’t like sending a lot of units to Asia even though i like the early 6 unit stack in Bur. My point is that Japan will kill everything easily if you don’t put pressure on them by atleast building a US navy in the pacific and an english IC in India. Therefore I think it is easier to stall them at Yak and Sin since you can have tanks in Rus halping for both deadzones.
As for first turn strategy (which is obviously very important) I think both WR+Ukr and WR+Nor is very playable as long as you send both fighters when attacking Nor (so you get one that will die on G1 at Kar). The Nor attack helps a lot to get early english units in Nor to help you with the Germany/Russia deadzone, saving the english battleship compensates for your IPC loss in comparison to the Ukr attack. The Ukr attack on the other hand delays the help you’ll get from your allies but you kill more Ger offensive units, remove one Fig for the Egy attack, and you don’t lose a fighter which is very helpful for not sending too many units in the Germany/Russia deadzone and is very expensive to replace. For buyings I buy 8 Inf whatever the attack I’m doing.
Finally I think that for Russia your responsability is to be able to hold the germans deadzone for at least 4 turns, hopefully more. I for that reason prefer slighly the 2 Fig Nor attack, to get much needed backup as early as possible to be able to handle the japanease when they get able to attack Yak or Sin.
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RE: What is your favorite bid ?
I tend to agree. I’d like the opinion of other people too that say that axis or allies are well favorized.
Thanks.