Asian were very evolved, they not make such simplification as Good & Evil, their “equivalent”, the Yin/Yang theory, is far more complex, deep, and even very coherent with the world around us. Sadly, some occidental “translate” Yin into Evil and Yang into Good.
Posts made by FinsterniS
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RE: Seperation of Church and State
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RE: Prime Factor
@TG:
Creationism is a weak theory (at least from what I read of it), but intelligent design is pretty convincing if you compare it with evolutionary theory.
…. because our mind is limited and we cannot understand that a design DO NOT need an intelligent designer, that is a good exemple of projection. Also evolutionay theory are often reduce by Theist so they can be easily attacked.
http://humanists.net/avijit/article/god_design_argument_avijit.htm
I don’t really use the same kind of argumentation as the guy above but i don’t see any fallacious argument in it either.
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RE: Seperation of Church and State
Wow, 17% Buddist? Very interesting. The only religion I have ever respected was Buddism, but I didnt think it had such a following in Europe.
Buddhism philosophy turn around the elimination of suffering, and french are “bon vivant”. Also buddhism is the only religion that is not in confrontation (for now anyway) in any point with science…
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RE: Prime Factor
See, the problem with evolution is that it’s its own worse enemy, not religion. Most non-scientists seem to be quite confused about precise definitions of biological evolution. Such confusion is due in large part to the inability of scientists to communicate effectively to the general public and also to confusion among scientists themselves about how to define such an term. When discussing evolution it is important to distinguish between the existence of evolution and various theories about the mechanism of evolution.
You are right on some point; Evolution is it’s worse enemy IN FACE OF THE PUBLIC. But in reality the different opinion on the mechanism of evolutionism is part of a normal process in science; theory appear, disappear, they chance, they evolve, that is all normal in science. Also evolution is a pretty young theory… give it time.
The problem is that creationism does not have so much divergence. Sure there is young earth creationism (the worse of all), the old earth creationism… but they do not chance, they have a theory base on their little bible and they do not chance (if they do; very slightly). They only try to “attack” evolutionism. They also try to convince the common, that will be too happy to believe in a theory they can easily understand (people have an hard time understanding everything is not necessarly breed by something intelligent)
Evolutionism is a very complex thing, far beyond my skill and even far beyond the understanding of the current scientist… it will take time to understand it.
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RE: Prime Factor
you know i have to take issue with this one. Christianity answers the questions that we honestly seek that science will never answer. Now it may never answer any of your questions, but for millions of Christians, it answers their most important questions. Questions that the Greeks, Romans, Indians, Japanese, Norse, etc. will never answer, never can answer.
Woooooo…. That is very arrogant, very dogmatic. Like your religion was the good one, the other religion cannot answer thing your religion can…
That is not historicly valid. Polytheist was very strong, it answer all the things christianism was answering, it was only less superficial, there was a lot of gods, and people were praying for the gods they think was appopriate for them.
it was just not as beautiful as christianism, not as rigid, and they do not menace people. Also polytheist do not make such promise as eternal love, eternal happiness and thing like that. You clearly lack objectivity… Like i ask, if this is just a question of faith, without any logic, then why X religion is better than Y ?
Certainly the bible is one source of these, but unless you’ve never know Jesus, then you will never know the only answers that REALLY matter. Science points to the here and over there - the measurable, which is nice for some of us. Religion points to the Who, how and why, as well as “what then?”.
Religion point to nothing science or philosophy cannot, it only make it very simple so anyone can understand.
Why do we exist ? Religion do not answer to that better than Philosophy. The only difference is that philosophy at least is base on something…
Science - that entity that you need to be honest to, will not feel jilted if you acknowledge a possibility that there is something else besides her. She is a great gal that way.
Science is a tool of the human mind. You admit god was not logical, so closing my eyes will eventually make me “honest” ? I will not admit something that is illogical like the believe in god. Christianism is pure arrogance, pure lack of vision, like the world needed to be created by something alive, something intelligent, that is a pure projection of ourself, god act like us, he IS us.
Not a little fanatic to believe in somethign without an argument ?
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RE: Prime Factor
Well, again there is not a millions definition… Species change, they evolve, they are not static, they biologicly change over time to perfect themself.
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RE: Prime Factor
@cystic:
We all here have a sense of ethic base on what we want to see in the world around us, if you say love is the ultimate goal of humanity then your ethic will turn around that; same thing for me. I believe religion is entraving evolution…
well, call me a projectionist, but you seem to think evolution and science IS religion.
Evolution is a nifty theory, and there is much physical evidence that may be used to support it, but it is yet unproven. Science - one pillar in my life, also very handy, and generates more curiousity even as i learn it. Still, it is just a tool that we use to explain the physical world around us. It is not the END of the journey, just a way to make the road a little more interesting. Maybe save some lives in the process. But it does nothing for people in providing answers - to life, to that which is unmeasurable, to soothe the questions that we have as we fall asleep at night. It does not remove the fear of death (or public speaking). When you walk in a dark room, you turn on the light. That does not allow you to see beyond the nearest wall. Science is like that. It illuminates places that it may illuminate, but there is a wall that science will not allow us to see beyond. As a scientist, i can accept that.I don’t pray for science, i don’t think it is the source of all answer. It is not a religion for me, it is just a part of life as much as the people around me. Is science a good thing ? I don’t even know… i just want to know, i am curious. The problem is the more i learn, the less i know… I accept the limit of knowledge; and it is very limited. But science itself has no limit, WE have limit, our brain is too weak, we simply cannot be objective, behind our jugement there is always a biological, individual, sociological creature.
About evolution we don’t know HOW it occur; but it really seem to occur. All the argument against Evolutionism are pretty weak… Mostly Young Earth Creationist’s argument… The difficulty with evolutionism is that we are not living very old; and most people only believe what they can see (like it was really clear the earth was not flat, but people believe so even more than 1 000 after it was proven the earth was a sphere (quasi-sphere))
Anyway, Christianism do not answer anything, it do not make us understand why we are here, it do not give us a goal… If christianism cannot be proove with rationality, why not believe in another mythology ? That is just an expression of fantasm… sure i would like to believe in heaven, in eternal love, i would love to; but i would not be honest to myself & to my science.
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RE: Fundamental Pledge Question
Thor was not the main god, he was only the son of Odin and Jord (i think)…
Anyway we should all venerate Cernunnos ! :evil:
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RE: Seperation of Church and State
Fisternis, less than half of France is Catholic? I want to see those statistics.
FiNsterniS. Here religion is pretty weak. France was the defensor of Catholicism, now it is more the defector :)
These stats are from survey (it was a website that is now down, it is where i took the stats on USA), so they ask people in what they believe, not how they were born.
It states;
France
Atheist 19%
Non-materialist Atheist 6%
Agnostic 25%Deist or Christian Deist 15%
Bouddhism (reincarnationism) 17%
Catholic 12%
Other Monotheist 1%This is pretty consistent with what i see here so i trust the statistic.
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RE: Canada Day
BTW, CC, no offense, but your Independence Day sucks! I’m serious, when I was over there during the summer, it seemed like you guys had no pride whatsoever!
That’s not a very large vision… Each culture celebrate differently, it does’nt “suck” for them and that is the important thing because it is THEIR day. They just express their pride differently and you should respect that.
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RE: Seperation of Church and State
playing with word ? That is just a word often use to describe the non-religious faction (Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist). I personnaly don’t like the word Freethinker, so i add “what we often call” to explain i did’nt say they necessarly were Freethinker, we just call the group of Atheist, Agnostic…, Freethinker.
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RE: Prime Factor
so given this, approximately what percent of the world do you hate F? America - roughly 92%, Canada around 82%, Europe in the ~50% range? Something like that?
I’m sorry you are so intolerant of me and my opinion. I am, believe it or not, tolerant of you. I think you need to find love - like the love that Jesus gives. That may take care of some of your anger and hate. Either that, or marijuana. Most of those guys seem pretty happy.Either that or marijuana ? the two are the same anyway. And i know i am not the epitome of tolerance but when i say i am intolerent vis-à-vis religion, and i repeat it; it is only for those who are claming religion is scientific, can be logic, et cetera… i don’t care about the majority of the religious people because for most of them this is just a personnal thing, they are not working against science. But the masses is somewhat easy to intimidate, if all scientist were evolutionist, then slowly people would understand, but because of some fanatic that use simplist theory easy to understand, people believe in a very large part creationism is a true thing. Those demagogue are working against science.
We all here have a sense of ethic base on what we want to see in the world around us, if you say love is the ultimate goal of humanity then your ethic will turn around that; same thing for me. I believe religion is entraving evolution…
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RE: Seperation of Church and State
“While most Americans are christians, it is not a christian nation and should not be veiwed as one.”
Maybe not a “christian nation”, but at least a very religious nation with a very judeo-christian sence of moral.
UNITED STATES
- 265.300.000 inhab.
- Usual statistics: 22-26% Catholic, 16% Baptist, 6% Methodist, 4% Lutheran, 2% Presbyterian but in total the Protestants
are the 31.8-40%, 1.5-1.9% Orthodox, 2.6% Jewish… The usual self adscriptions are: 56% Protestant ( 6% So. Baptists,
10% other Baptists, 9% Methodists, 6% Lutherans, 3% Pentacostalists, 3% Presbyterians, 2% Episcopalians, 1% Church
of Christ and an 11% in none of these); 26% as Catholics; 1% is Mormon; and according to The 1998 Britannica Book of
Year, the non-christians are: 8.8% Nonreligionists, 2% Muslim (with Black Muslims), 2% Jewish, 0.7% Buddhists, 0.3%
Hindus, 0.3% Atheists, 1% other religionists. - Data: Appeared in ABC news, to teach creationism and evolutionism in the school: 68% yes - 29% not; to teach creationism
without evolutionism: 40% yes - 55% not; the human race was created by god 10.000 years ago maximum 44%, created with
evolution but with the providence too 39%, evolution only without god 10%. Poll of Gallup '99 shows a 33% of believers in a
literal Bible. In a survey among catholics in 1995, the 43% accept the abortion but in case of ill or violation, other 15% never;
the 76-82% a favour of the use of anticonceptives; but among all the americans (according to a poll appeared in the CBS 1995):
the 46% think that is assassination, but the half of those thinks that sometimes is necessary. Continuing with the catholics,
the 57% practice weekly and the 28% once per month min., the 83% believe that the bread and the wine of the mass is the
Body of Christ. In the Harris poll '95, 95% believe in god, 90% in the heaven, 80% in the divinity of Christ, 89% in the after life,
87% in miracles, 85% in the virginity of Mary. In another survey, among the believers in the heaven (81%), the 5% think that
after his/her death will be the end, the 6% will be the reincarnation. In a poll by the Yankelovich Partners '97, the 25% of all
americans believe in some degree in the reincarnation. Gallup '95 and '96: White protestants whom in the self description is
fundamentalist is 24% ( 28% vote republican, 20% democrat); your religion is important in your life ?, 60% all (50% men -
68% women - 48% in 18/29 age - 58% in 30/49 age - 67% in 50/64 age - 73% in more of 65 age. In the self ascription: 28%
Catholic, 0.4% Orthodox, 57% Protestants (where 19% Baptists, 6% Lutherans, 9% Methodists) = 85.4% Christians, 0.5%
Islamic, 1.8% Jewish, 9% None. Nowadays, the 40% is weekly practicing and the 89% believe in god (1997). In New York,
19% bisexual or homosexual, another cipher: By 500.000 US heroinomans, the half dwell here. USA: The 13% of the
matrimonies finish in divorce. According to Andrew Greeley, 57% believe in hell, 70% in the heaven, 80% in the other life.
Gallup '98 believing in a literal Bible 38%, inspired 45.6%, without god 13%; in others polls, they show to us that in 1998-99
the 96% believe in god. About the reincarnation vary depending the source in: 35% (CNN in '90), 20% in 1991, 20% (Gallup’98),
30% (Luitz Research, in George 12/96). According to certain calculus there are 4.000.000 Freemasons.
The Harris Polls have some different results surely because of the way to ask; the number 52 in September 2000, at the
question of beliefs was “Please say for each one if you believe in it, or not” (Negative or positive answers only) give us these
results: God 94% - Heaven 89% - Resurection of Christ 86% - Survival of the soul after death 86% - Miracles 85% - Virginity
of Mary 82% - Devil 72% - Hell 73% - Ghosts 39% - Reincarnation 20%.
If we go deeply into the american beliefs, the journalist Russell Chandler (Los Angeles Times) reports that a 40% believe
that god is all and all is god (pantheism); Gallup reports that the majority of the Christians in America believe in biblical
Trinity; and other polls report that a 62% believe the Holy Spirit do not represents a personal entity but a divine manifestation
of power… The calculations let us a big portion of people that put on the same level God and a fly (all is god), in a TRInity
composted by two persons, etc. ( ! ). - Abortions: 22.9 (1996), representing to 1.365.700 babies / Ratio: 25.9%. The 78% of the women that “aborted” their children
were unmarried. - New statistic: 2% Atheist; 4% Agnostic; 2% Pseudoatheist in ISSP98; 14% Deist; 5% Jewish and others; 4% Christian
deist; 21% Neodoukhobor; 8-0% Pseudochristian; 40-48% Christian (26% Protestant; 13% Catholic). Approximate
valuation.
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).
US = ~8%
Canada = ~18%France = ~50%
Germany = ~44%
UK = ~40%Compare to France, Germany and the UK, we can consider North-america to be highly religious.
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RE: 9/11 conspiracy
You are forgetting Castro with his weapon of mass destruction ( i am sarcastic )
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RE: Prime Factor
I’ll only hate a man (or woman) who wrongs me
I’ll only hate an human if he work agaisnt my science, or against my species…
I am tolerant for all those who believe, but only when they don’t start claiming god is the answer, he will send infidel to hell and that there’s physical/rational evidence of his existence. There’s a lot of religious people that can enter this definition, by saying god is an affair of personnal feeling.
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RE: Is there life outside our solar system ?
lol…FinsterniS, try to resist.
I did, because anyway there’s nothing to answer to that.
I am certainly not mature enough to give up my free will to a myth :)
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RE: Prime Factor
@TG:
I don’t know, my sister is Christian (and from an athiest family no doubt), and I bet it wasn’t the fear of God and a life long eternity in Hell that made her become one according to her own will. (though I don’t like children being baptized when they have no yet the capacity to choose that religion as their own)
I was speaking in a general way, i don’t care about individual exemple. I don’t see how your exemple can be usefull. Most people in France are white, if i know someone that is black, this is an argument about my first supposition ?
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RE: Prime Factor
@Anonymous:
if the majority was atheist, than in a conformist society, atheism would rule supreme.
that is certain
how long would that be certain? It only takes one or two Christians to “infect” a society.
Sure christianism is a resiliant religion, they have a lot of tool to convince, mostly by fear, by flattering human ego and with pseudo-logic. (pseudo is the strong word)
They were able to convert a lot of people really fast in antiquity, quite impressing…
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RE: Fundamental Pledge Question
hey, i’m voting against me ;)
And it’s not Fisternis but FinsterniS
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RE: American Parties
i would vote socialist just for the ideology of collectivism & atheism because i never heard of them… just the democrat, republican and green party (with nader), between the 3 i would certaibly vote for Nader. But if there is socialist i would probably vote for them. But even then, i am not sure socialist (in the sense of communism) are atheist in america :lol: