Nuclear Iran



  • We have discussed North Korea, now let’s talk Iran.



  • Ah another one of the Axis of Evil.



  • Its really not that big of a deal



  • Yeah all they need is a couple commercial planes.



  • I voted : SO WHAT

    USA has them. Many western countries have them
    India, Pakistan have them (and we know how India and Pakistan hate each other)

    We shouldn’t tell what others can and can’t do, if we can’t do it ourselves (Aka, don’t get bombs, although we have it. The WE refer to USA, and not Canada, because Canada doesn’t have the bomb)

    Of course, I am very concerned. Why do they want the nuclear weapons? In my opinion, it is only to feel more powerful, a national pride, a desire to be acknowledged as a major power in the world.
    I don’t think anyone rational would want the nuclear weapon to use them as a weapon. Its more as an indirect tool of negociations

    Robert



  • That was an interesting spelling of the word annihilation.



  • @idk_iam_swiss:

    Its really not that big of a deal

    My thoughts exactly.

    @Brain:

    Yeah all they need is a couple commercial planes.

    They’ve had them for decades.

    At the heart of this is a desire for Iran to substitute nuclear power for it’s gas & oil energy production.  Nukes are a different development altogether.



  • If we keep treating them like kids, they will keep acting like kids, rebellious ones at that.



  • but its not americas job to determine what other countries are allowed to have



  • Yes I agree, I don’t think we would want anyone telling us what to do.



  • quack. no non-nuclear proliferation ideas?  just the lame argument " the west has them and America used them"? anything that counters the policies of the US is “good”. who cares if there are atom bombs everywhere,eh? as long as it pisses off those dumb Americans, thats all its aboot.  Iran just wants energy. :roll: You cant be that naive…or dumb…can you?  😐



  • Americans arent dumb. Lazy yes, they rush into things before thinking that doesnt make them dumb. It just means that they dont think FIRST.



  • Iran really wants nuclear power and weapons, and eventually they are going to get them. I have been hearing that they are gonna have a bomb in 18 months.

    Of course they dont want to use them, they just want to be able to protect themselves from the US,
    but that is bad enough, the Iranian regime is a horrible one that is extremly ambitious and wants to be a the dominate power in central asia and the middle east, and a major power on the global stage.
    A powerful Iran today is as exceptible as a powerful germany in the 1930s. If  the US dosnt give Israel the green light to take out Iran’s nuclear facilties, no one in the middle east is going to feel safe and we will start seeing Turkery, Egypt and Saudi Arabia scrambaling for convential weapons and nukes of their own.

    Its going to be hard enough disarming Iran even if we launched attacks against them today, they have a powerful military and air defence, and they can mine hormuz via artillery and aircraft.

    The situation is only going to get worse, unless the Iranian people can some how change their gov from within, as of the elections that looks unlikly

    if you dont think Iran having nukes is a big deal you being complacent, complacency is the wost sin and historicaly is always the cause of damnation.

    I dont think the US has the gut, and even if they do victory isnt going to be pretty, so my choice was run to the hills.



  • Should Israel take Iran seriously?

    Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said more than once that Israel should be wiped off the map, and that the Holocaust is an overblown fairytale.



  • I think you guys put to much faith in isreal. I like them but I think you forget they are surrounded by nations that hate them. Have you researched the facility in question? its miles underground. conventional weapons wont destroy something that deep. Besides an act like one you are claiming would be an invitation to open warfare. which isreal never does/should want. I like the idea of bombing it. But you cant just go blowing countries nuclear projects up just because you “dont like them” or dont want them to have it.



  • @Emperor_Taiki:

    Iran really wants nuclear power and weapons, and eventually they are going to get them. I have been hearing that they are gonna have a bomb in 18 months.

    Of course they dont want to use them, they just want to be able to protect themselves from the US,
    but that is bad enough, the Iranian regime is a horrible one that is extremly ambitious and wants to be a the dominate power in central asia and the middle east, and a major power on the global stage.
    A powerful Iran today is as exceptible as a powerful germany in the 1930s. If  the US dosnt give Israel the green light to take out Iran’s nuclear facilties, no one in the middle east is going to feel safe and we will start seeing Turkery, Egypt and Saudi Arabia scrambaling for convential weapons and nukes of their own.

    Its going to be hard enough disarming Iran even if we launched attacks against them today, they have a powerful military and air defence, and they can mine hormuz via artillery and aircraft.

    The situation is only going to get worse, unless the Iranian people can some how change their gov from within, as of the elections that looks unlikly

    if you dont think Iran having nukes is a big deal you being complacent, complacency is the wost sin and historicaly is always the cause of damnation.

    I dont think the US has the gut, and even if they do victory isnt going to be pretty, so my choice was run to the hills.

    Their is no country in the Middle East that can match the US in conventional warfare. So no matter how much respect you have for the Iranian military, The US would destroy every aircraft they have in about 1 week and every military vehicle they have in about 1 month and all that would be left would be guerilla warfare and urban fighting. Don’t forget it wasn’t that long ago that Iran and Iraq were going at it, and Iran was not having any success. And then try to remember how long it took the US to destroy the Iraq military.



  • @Emperor_Taiki:

    Iran really wants nuclear power and weapons, and eventually they are going to get them. I have been hearing that they are gonna have a bomb in 18 months.

    Of course they dont want to use them, they just want to be able to protect themselves from the US,
    but that is bad enough, the Iranian regime is a horrible one that is extremly ambitious and wants to be a the dominate power in central asia and the middle east, and a major power on the global stage.
    A powerful Iran today is as exceptible as a powerful germany in the 1930s. If  the US dosnt give Israel the green light to take out Iran’s nuclear facilties, no one in the middle east is going to feel safe and we will start seeing Turkery, Egypt and Saudi Arabia scrambaling for convential weapons and nukes of their own.

    Its going to be hard enough disarming Iran even if we launched attacks against them today, they have a powerful military and air defence, and they can mine hormuz via artillery and aircraft.

    The situation is only going to get worse, unless the Iranian people can some how change their gov from within, as of the elections that looks unlikly

    if you dont think Iran having nukes is a big deal you being complacent, complacency is the wost sin and historicaly is always the cause of damnation.

    I dont think the US has the gut, and even if they do victory isnt going to be pretty, so my choice was run to the hills.

    Here is a link to the Ayatollah himself condemning the production or use of nuclear weapons: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8265899.stm

    Nice Godwin.

    You use diplomacy to disarm another country and then if that doesn’t stop them, you don’t give them a reason to use them by threatening or attacking.  I guess people never learned from our previous meddling in Iran.  The younger generations have been becoming pro-West, and if we did a stupid thing like started bombing, we’d lose that support that’s taken forever to achieve.



  • US military may be superior than any country. (It is indeed, in conventional way). But if you truly believe that you can just go in and blow everything, you are dead wrong.

    Diplomacy is the way to deal with countries nowadays. Not military.



  • I couldnt have said it better myself. I completely agree with you Omega.



  • @Omega:

    Diplomacy is the way to deal with countries nowadays. Not military.

    that sounds like post-modern BS to me. What is diplomacy based upon if not the willingness to harshly use econamic or military power? sure, many nations have common interests, but then diplomacy is easy. Right now Iran wants power it does not deserve and will use negitivly, so how do you purpose we stop them?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w77sLtz754

    It seems to me the iranian leadership was pretty effective in surpressing pro-western iranians after the election, perhaps we can wait till the next elections, but by then the Iranians are likly going to have a bomb.

    Or think about this scenario: In three years Iran has a dozen nukes, but their is a popular movement in Iran to reform he government and make it more western. So the conservitive leadership, like any good dictatorship/theocracy would, decides to start a war to unify their control over the country once more.
    consider this quote by Goering:

    "Of course the people don’t want war . . . But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always to brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.

    “All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”

    It works the same in any country."

    — Field Marshal Herman Goering

    In this situation the US or any other country would have a very difficult time stopping Iran from attacking its neighbors, Isreal, or Hormuz.

    @idk_iam_swiss:

    But you cant just go blowing countries nuclear projects up just because you “dont like them” or dont want them to have it.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2983719.ece
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece

    the advantage of being hated by everyone is that you dont give a $#!%

    heres a cool map i found though, it is slightly outdated though because it dosnt have that the facility that was recetently revealed.

    http://temi.repubblica.it/limes-heartland/how-israel-can-strike-iran/1334



  • That is a cool map, and goering is correct, war is a way to almost completely unify the people. but I simply dont think you can just start shooting first and asking questions later. Diplomacy first, if that doesnt work THEN you can try other methods.



  • "Right now Iran wants power it does not deserve and will use negitivly, so how do you purpose we stop them?
    "

    Who are you, sir, to determine if Iran does not deserve more power/influence?

    I’m asking this :
    Should each country in this world have the same power of influence?
    Should the more rich have more influence?
    Should the more powerful (military) have more influence?

    Iran, as a nation, has the right to govern in his territory, and has the right to play his part in the international scence. They have a crazy Leader that said many times that Israel should be wiped out of the world. But that crazy leader doesn’t make a country. If we (WEST) attack Iran with sanctions, of course that crazy man will gain in power.

    Citing Goering is a big - for you. Like, does that stupid man has some sort of influence over you? Does his words fill your mind with pleasure? Or are you that smart that you believe all your brothers/sisters to be plain dumb and that they will listen to their governments without any capabilities of criticism?

    Look at Korea, for example. If you want to defeat them diplomatically, go negociate with China. China is like the last supporter of North Korea. Remove China and see if North Korea will continue to act stupidly.

    “that sounds like post-modern BS to me. What is diplomacy based upon if not the willingness to harshly use econamic or military power? sure, many nations have common interests, but then diplomacy is easy”
    To a certain extent, all countries have some sort of common interests.

    If you believe diplomacy is all about : do this or you will be crushed by our military/economy, you are wrong. Economy and Military are tools of diplomacy and can be used in some cases. But if you believe military power is the only way of negotiation, you are dead wrong again and need to go breathe some optimism air. This world isn’t just evil. Or maybe Goering got into you?

    I agree that not all countries are good. BUT. If we could go back into time, I wouldn’t recommand using military to strike first at countries like Rawnda or Nazi Germany.

    WHY???

    I am all against utilitarism calculations. If you could kill X people to save 100 times X more, would yo do it? I wouldn’t do it

    Apply it to our world. Should we destroy Iran and North Korea to protect the rest of the world (although it is very likely that not the whole world perceive those two countries as threats)? We will killing, what, some millions of people to protect life of billions!

    And sorry for my bad phrasing/logic. My English, as you can see, is not very good. And since I am doing some homeworks at the same time, I don’t have time to make beautiful sentenses.



  • @Omega:

    I’m asking this :
    Should each country in this world have the same power of influence?
    Should the more rich have more influence?
    Should the more powerful (military) have more influence?

    I dont really understand what you mean by this. The more rich and more powerful do have more influence. Countries should have influence based on how responsible their government is, everything else being equal, this means dictatorships should not be trusted and be made less rich and powerful while demacircies should be trusted and should be made more rich and powerful.

    You have misunderstood my Goering quote. Both Goering and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad were/are both crazy and abusive rulers, so the quote helps understand what Ahmadinejad may be thinking. I am quite offended that you decided to attack me persoanaly for citing a historical figure instead attacking my argument.

    It sounds to me like you are a  pacifist( you said you are not willing to kill people to save people.) Pacfism is impracticle and is a complacent philosphy that cannot defeat evil. Explain your pacifism, give some support.

    here are some words that do fill my mind with pleasure

    “If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”
    – Winston Churchill

    also, your english is fine and the US cant negotiate with china because that is where all their dept is. Econamic power always trumps idealistic fantasy crap.



  • Unfortunatly hes right. You dont see canada or madagascar threatening anyone do you?



  • I never said that using military force is the correct course of action. I merely stated that if it came to that, we have nothing to fear from Iraq’s military. And I only stated that because the Emperor said we should fear their military which I think is absurd.


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