Preferred option to stall Japanese expansion.


  • @Funcioneta:

    Obvious. But are the allies who have to run, because axis has economic advantage in this scenario (from round 3 as much). If you send soviets to India, you will lose Karelia, Ukranie and such.

    If the Axis have the economic advantage against the Allies, you’re not playing the Allies right.

    @Funcioneta:

    There no solution for 1941 scenario puzzle: allies cannot hold Asia, not a chance, due poor setup and very poor, by gaming and historical reasons, China rules (that make China more a puppet for Japan than an aid for allies). If you have a theater lost even before rolling dices, you cannot win the war

    You keep beating that “1941 scenario is broken” drum but it’s not true. I think it’s your game play that is flawed, not the game.

    While I’m on it what’s with you and China? Why do you think they should be upgraded to a full power? They were not an industrialized nation at the time and were very marginalized. Why should they be producing tanks and bombers?


  • The problem with China is that Japan can kill it J1 without losing some of real importancy. After China goes India, because Japan starts with 5 trannies (unless you want lose Moscow sending soviet army to India). Game lost, axis collects more money than allies

    You claim historical accuracy with non-industrial stuff. However, China had a horde army (not represented, China collects, with luck 1 or 2 inf), attacked Burma (as Revised manual said) and I’m pretty sure there was no blitzkrieg of Japan tanks in non-industrial, mountain zones of China

    Even if I don’t like seeing China as a popping inf machine, my main issue is that China is not playable, not only because of setup, but also because of the many bugs and sploits that axis can abuse against her. In AA Pacific, China was still a popping inf machine, but it was playable: it resisted J1  :-P, costed a pain for Japan to conquer it and the fricking fig was not dead round 1 (and could be replaced). I don’t like China in AA Pacific, I think needs better treat, but it works. That level would be one with I could live

    If you have the solution with vanilla game, say it. I’ll believe it when I see it


  • @WOPR:

    If the Axis have the economic advantage against the Allies, you’re not playing the Allies right.

    If allies have the economic advantage against axis, you are not playing axis right or you are having extreme luck (probably a combo of both)

    China cannot hold (7 IPCs)
    India cannot hold (7+5 of NO = 12 IPCs)

    Germany will collect 40-45 IPCs, Italy 10-25 against 30 of soviets and 25-30 from UK. Balanced? True, but the problem is the 65-70 of Japan against 43-48 of USA

    Forget the SBRs: axis can do more than allies. Forget the old ignore Japan strat: it only gives even more money to axis and forces USA to fight in America instead of Pacific Ocean and Africa/Europe


  • @Funcioneta:

    @WOPR:

    If the Axis have the economic advantage against the Allies, you’re not playing the Allies right.

    If allies have the economic advantage against axis, you are not playing axis right or you are having extreme luck (probably a combo of both)

    WOPR, I would like to know how you are keeping an economic advantage with the allies if you suggest we are not playing them right.  Any insight you can give would be much appreciated because I for one have a difficult time holding the economic advantage in 1941.


  • @Funcioneta:

    @WOPR:

    If the Axis have the economic advantage against the Allies, you’re not playing the Allies right.

    If allies have the economic advantage against axis, you are not playing axis right or you are having extreme luck (probably a combo of both)

    Well only one way to settle this. We’ll have to have ourselves a game. Then we’ll see who is and isn’t employing a good strategy.

    @Captain:

    @WOPR:

    If the Axis have the economic advantage against the Allies, you’re not playing the Allies right.

    WOPR, I would like to know how you are keeping an economic advantage with the allies if you suggest we are not playing them right.  Any insight you can give would be much appreciated because I for one have a difficult time holding the economic advantage in 1941.

    Like I’ve said, I don’t like to get into specifics on strategy on the forums. I like playing the Axis more than the Allies so I’m not eager to put effective Allied strategies out into the world.


  • @Cmdr:

    yea, that is a mistake one not soon forgets!

    Not sure how effectively you can SBR Japan from Stanovoj.  Not saying it is effective or ineffective, saying I’m not sure how effective it is! (some people like axis_roll will assume because I said “not sure how effective…” I mean completely ineffective and go off the deep end trying to prove me wrong, hence the clarification!)

    I’d say it is a pretty heavy investment from what you are describing.

    21-24 IPC in Russian Infantry

    • 20 IPC in British Fighters
    • 20 IPC in American Fighters
    • 24 IPC in American Bombers
    • 12 IPC in British Bombers (?)

    That’s 88 IPC (if you dont bring the British Bomber) of units tied up to do 3.5 IPC damage per bomber on average. (10-11 Dmg a round expected.)

    Just to put some perspective on it.  Again, I am NOT saying this is a GOOD or a BAD idea, I am only attempting to investigate further.

    Hi Jen,

    Basicly this tactic uses as was stated the majority of of starting units.  You stack up all the USSR inf and fly usually 2 US ftr is enough + as many US bombers as you need into Stanovj.  If the Japanese want to remove this threat they need to send more units in this direction than they usually want to.  When you feel like there’s enough threat you simply move back 1 space with the inf and fly the ftr’s back to the Pacific for carrier duty and the Bombers can either fly home, to the UK to hit Germany or what i like to do (if theres a Manchurian IC) is move to Russia and bomb it from there.  What i sometimes do with the US ftr’s is use them in what i call my Russian stack push where i stack up in either Eastern Ukr or Belorus with all i got and then flying 2 UK + 2 US ftr’s into the stack along with an AA gun.  Certainly gives Jerry something to think about when i do it again into East Poland and he’s dangerously thin of inf on the front.


  • @WOPR:

    @Funcioneta:

    @WOPR:

    If the Axis have the economic advantage against the Allies, you’re not playing the Allies right.

    If allies have the economic advantage against axis, you are not playing axis right or you are having extreme luck (probably a combo of both)

    Well only one way to settle this. We’ll have to have ourselves a game. Then we’ll see who is and isn’t employing a good strategy.

    Ok, Funcioneta(Axis) vs WOPR(Allies)!

    I like playing the Axis more than the Allies
    Here on this website, PBF.
    Sign me up for a ringside seat.

    I like playing the Axis more than the Allies.

    This isn’t because the Axis have an advantage, is it?

    Just playing Devil’s Advocate here.  :lol:

    I personally am not completely sold on the idea that the Axis can not lose without horrible dice and/or poor gameplay, but it does seem that they do have a slight advantage in the eastern Asian region.

  • Customizer

    Buying anything for the Pacific not as good as buying thing for the Atlantic:

    a single submarine bought for the pacific = 2 more infantry in France or Italy
    a single carrier bought for the pacific = 1 tank + 3 more infantry in France or Italy
    a single fighter bought for the pacific = 1 artillery + 2 more infantry in France or Italy

    And what exactly do those submarines, carriers and fighters in the Pacific get for you?
    You have to buy Transports and Troops for the Pacific TOO if you are going to threaten islands.
    You will never take Japan’s island, and Asian mainland is far too many turns away to set up a shuck/transport chain.
    Any money you spend on Transports and Troops IN the Pacific is money NOT spent on Submarines and Carriers and Fighters.
    If you go all out and buy just navy, you have a small chance of actually destroying the Japanese Navy…. .but what then?  What do you do with that?  Japan still has her mainland factories pumping out guys on the way to Moscow.  You can’t and will never stop them.
    If you buy some transports with the rest going to navy, you can take a couple islands here and there, cutting Japan’s income from 60 to maybe 40 after they lose an NO or two… but… they still have their navy sitting in Formosa or Japan, and their factories pumping out guys on their way to moscow.  You took some income from them, good job, but did you actually delay them more than a single turn with all that navy?  Nope.


  • Problem is that if you don’t buy US navy then Tojo can relax and pump everything into Moscow without spending a single ipc to increase it’s navy.  If the US match and try to surpass Tojo’s navy then they must spend ipc’s to counter what the US is doing.  If the US completely destroys the Japanese navy they can threaten both the asian mainland or Japan itself forcing the Japanese player to spend ipc’s defending Japan and China.  These are units that wont be threatening Russia.


  • I can play axis against any person wanting show a winning allied strat. I even did the -25 bid challenge (3 games), so I’m pretty tired of playing axis but I don’t mind. Just AABattlemap, normal forum dices, techs and NOs in play. Optionals escorts and straits not in play, just vanilla with tech and NOs. 15 or 13 VCs, your choice. 1941 I guess since that’s the issue we are talking. Any interested, just PM me


  • @Funcioneta:

    Just AABattlemap, normal forum dices, techs and NOs in play.

    Do you like the randomness of tech?  To me, I would run a pacific strat when playing with tech just because I MIGHT get long range or heavy bombers or even jets that can turn a naval stand-off between Japan and USA into a huge decisive winning battle.  I guess it works for Japan as well if they roll for tech.

    I think a no-tech game makes it even harder to run a USA pacific strat.


  • I like complexity that gives tech, and the variations it adds. If you get surprised by LRA or HBs, you didn’t planned a counter to those techs

    USA should build Pacific all the games. You don’t want Godzilla running freely across the whole world. It can seem a slow Godzilla, but in fact is much more quick than USA and it’s sluggish KGF shuck. It can hit America at pleasure or make a easy rush against Africa and Mediterranean. You are giving tons of free IPCs in Pacific (aus, nzel, haw, NOs and probably also Alaska) and Africa, etc.


  • Just one thought on a house rule - has anyone place 1 UK inf on each of the UK islands from Borneo to the Solomons?

    Maybe it would at least delay Japanese expansion. After all they have the best NO in the game - 3 territories with no resistance on? Even the Germans have to kill some Russian inf G1… and that’s still a giveaway!


  • @Funcioneta:

    I like complexity that gives tech, and the variations it adds. If you get surprised by LRA or HBs, you didn’t planned a counter to those techs

    I’ve heard this before and I think it’s a lousy arguement.

    You think planning to handle a low outcome event like getting HB’s or LRA makes the game better?
    Let’s say I roll 6 tech dice (just to help eliminate that variable somewhat)
    I SHOULD get a tech break thru (odds are probably less then 100%, but I will let the statisticians point that out).
    so then I might get LRAs or HB’s.  1/6 of either one.

    So assuming my opponent CAN roll for 6 dice, I SHOULD plan for 16% of LRA?  or HBs? 
    I guess maybe that is a personal preference, but I think the instant, surprise, game winning tech does not make the game better.

    It’s such a low odds event, but you are saying that good players SHOULD plan for that…. I guess I am not seeing how 84% of the time, that planning is not needed, but that makes the game better?

    Don’t get me wrong, I like tech, just not the instantaneous aspect of it:  SURPRISE, we got a 6 and then a 6 and now we win.

    **YAHTZEE! **


  • I am sorry axis but you do not understand the tech game or the mindset of tech players. That is all there is to it.

    I exclusively play tech games and there are many times in the PTO that I make my moves based on the assumption that my opponent will get LR regardless of the %chance because I do not need to loose these units.

    Some techs are better than others and that also varies by nation. Most of the techs also require having units on the board and in position to benefit from them. There is very little Yahtzee I win to tech games.

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    I agree with the big Dog.  Big Dog, I can finally give karma now that I’m playing a game by forum, so here you go.


  • @a44bigdog:

    I am sorry axis but you do not understand the tech game or the mindset of tech players. That is all there is to it.

    I exclusively play tech games and there are many times in the PTO that I make my moves based on the assumption that my opponent will get LR regardless of the %chance because I do not need to loose these units.

    Some techs are better than others and that also varies by nation. Most of the techs also require having units on the board and in position to benefit from them. There is very little Yahtzee I win to tech games.

    Oh, I understand the tech game and the mindset:  You have to ALWAYS play against the low odds, which is fine, because I have seen (many times) battles with outcome chances of less than 1%, win, and it’s part of the game.  This is in ‘regular’ battles.

    Now you can add even more chance for ‘low odds’ outcomes (tech rolls) to sway the outcome of the game if that is your bag.  Is this a better game?  How much do you want dice to determine the game’s outcome?

    I personally prefer LESS of these sorts of dice results … to me, less dice that affect the outcome equals a more strategic game.  I am OK with this if tech weapons are minimized by delaying their affect to the next round.


    However, I do not like the exactness of Low Luck.  Why?  Too exacting.  NO chance is involved.

    Again, personal preference.


  • +1 Karma Big Dog,

    I have to agree with you over Axis Roll, although I believe that I can see both sides of this issue.  It just seems to come down to more of a personal preference and where on the scale of no luck (chess) to pure luck (Yahtzee) people like to play.  Yes, playing with instant tech is slightly closer to Yahtzee, but it does not turn the game into a pure luck game, it just increases the variables and options which players must look at, so it actually increases the complexity of the game.

    If players don’t want to increase the complexity of the game by using tech and having to think, “What if my opponent gets _____ tech.” then that’s fine with me, but it is definitely NOT Yahtzee.


  • @Bardoly:

    Yes, playing with instant tech is slightly closer to Yahtzee, but it does not turn the game into a pure luck game, it just increases the variable and options which players must look at, so it actually increases the complexity of the game.

    So randomness = complexity?

    How about ‘more options’ = complexity.  I can agree with that, but randomness is not a necessary component of ‘more options’.


    And I never said that the game was a pure luck game because of tech.  I said it increases the randomness of the game.

    BTW, yahtzee is not 100% pure luck game.  I may roll two 1’s a 3 and two 6’s in Yahtzee.  I decide to pick up the two 1’s and the 3 and roll ‘for’ 6’s.  I could just the same try for 1’s… so there IS a decision that is made by the player.

    Is it strategic?  not likely… but it’s not PURE luck.

    I am getting off topic, sorry.


    Let’s debate the Russian opening move of 7 inf in Bury as a slowing tactic against Japan.
    Can that work?

    How about if you buy a Russian bomber for some range so those 7 inf can have some offensive power behind them.
    Now does that help?


  • @axis_roll:

    @Bardoly:

    Yes, playing with instant tech is slightly closer to Yahtzee, but it does not turn the game into a pure luck game, it just increases the variables and options which players must look at, so it actually increases the complexity of the game.

    So randomness = complexity?

    How about ‘more options’ = complexity.  I can agree with that, but randomness is not a necessary component of ‘more options’.

    Exactly what I said.  Playing with tech (and instantaneous tech, at that), increases variables and options, which, in turn, increases the complexity of the game by forcing players to plan for those options.  I’m glad that we agree.

    Actually, I agree with you that technology should not be “instantaneous”, in that, how did those US fighters in Persia suddeny get retrofitted with jet engines just because scientists back in the 48 contiguous discovered how to make jet engines work?

    I DO think that tech should be a surprise though, because the UK tried all sorts of ways, including lying about their flak tower gunners eating lots of carrots to improve their eyesight (which is a myth), to hide the fact that they had discovered radar, and Germany’s way of telling the world that she had discovered rockets was by shelling London.

    So, for now, in the interests of simplicity, I don’t have a better way to model technology surprises other than the OOB rules of instantaneous tech.


    Back to Soviet moves against Japan.

    I usually like to stack 7 inf in Bry and purchase 1 bomber - placed in Caucasas.
    These moves can threaten sz38 and a first turn IC in Manchuria.

    This move can not always be done, especially if Germany and Italy gun hard for Caucasus.  As happened recently in my tournament game.  (Link below)

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14958.0

    I have made some mistakes, but we just finished round 5, and even with my losing Caucasus on G2  😞 , Japan has been kept in the mid-40’s for the entire game, and has not collected for all 3 of his NOs even once so far.


  • I also prefer an IC in India… even if I lost it the last time I played with the allies.
    I think that is the only way to stop Japan in Asia and, most of all,
    to avoid that Japan eats alive Russia while Moscow is being defended from Germany.


  • @axis_roll:

    BTW, yahtzee is not 100% pure luck game.  I may roll two 1’s a 3 and two 6’s in Yahtzee.  I decide to pick up the two 1’s and the 3 and roll ‘for’ 6’s.  I could just the same try for 1’s… so there IS a decision that is made by the player.

    Is it strategic?  not likely… but it’s not PURE luck.

    So if I CHOOSE to buy a lottery ticket, and then CHOOSE my numbers - it makes it less to do with luck than if I was randomly assigned 6 numbers by a computer. Well I think you are confusing making a decision based on solid information about the likely outcome and a decision made with no basis in that.

    In fact - that argument shows that if you choose tech - to some degree you are making a decision based on pretty good odds. You get to roll until you make a discovery, and then the discovery is likely to help you - even if it wasn’t the one you hoped for.

    So yes. Depending solely on getting ‘heavy bombers’ is probably less sensible than basing your strategy on investment in what will over time become a qualitatively better army than your opponent.

    Example - in the 1980’s the US researched using ‘psychics’ as weapons. They invested about $80 million. A lot of money (though a drop in the ocean of military spending). It turned out that psychics were not useful militarily. So. That was a research ‘roll’ wasted.

    All nations over time have spent money on research dead ends - the ones who are ‘luckiest’ and whose scientists (often working at the edge of their fields with not much idea of what they will discover) are lucky enough to get there first change history. So no. Tech is no more random than hoping the 5 IPC you invested in that tank will result in the destruction of that infantry you just sent it against. After all - we have more control over what units we buy - but less control over what our scientists can produce. So I think it mimics real life. You throw money at scientists and hope you get something good back!

    However - I do think that with unit improvements - they should only apply to NEW units built after the discovery of technology. After all - it wasn’t like the germans stuck jet engines of their heinkel 111s or Me 109s. They built new aircraft models incorporating the technologies as did the brits and the rest.

    This sudden ‘Oh all 6 of my bombers are now HEAVY bombers GREAT!’ is really the crux of the problem and why I don’t like tech. It’s not that it changes the course of the war - it’s that over the course of a single turn it changes the layout of the board - suddenly navies which were secure become vulnerable (LRA, HB, SS), front lines which were well thought out become ineffective (Adv Art, Mech Inf).

    Of course we could take it further in that technology did lead to dramatic surprises  for example: Russian use of new artillery tactics to encircle Stalingrad genuinely did set in motion a series of hammer blows which surprised and knocked back the German southern front leading to the repeat of this tactic in the North and Central fronts. But I think this is a flawed argument as nothing else in the game is secret. Navies move around the pacific in full view of their opponents, we all see exactly what new materiel our opponents place in their capitals each round etc. In fact in AAP40 I wonder how Japan is supposed to ‘surprise’ the allies as she actually did in 1941 with her lightning assaults across the Pacific.

    So. Overall tech is annoying (and I don’t play with it) because it throws the board into chaos and it’s effects can be so widespread as to turn the game in a single round.


  • I simply feel the game is too easy and less complex if you don’t have to worry about tech. Naval battles specially are pretty scripted unless you have to worry about tech, but the whole game gets more scripted without tech. I like the tactical thinking required against a possible LRA, HBs, JF or super subs. If the enemy has a balanced navy/airfleet, it’s very possible he get some valuable tech and then toast you. If youd didn’t take tech into account and abuse of battle calculator to see the exact amount of boats you need without the tech, you deserve being punished by the tech. The same applies for land combat: you need more effort and more thingking, nore less, because you have more variables

    If you base your strat only in HBs, you deserve lose, because you have a very slight chance of getting them when you want it, and there is also a chance of your rival getting the proper counter before you get the HBs. The better strat is always the most balanced: ignore a point of the game, being a theater of war or tech or you want, and you are probably lost

    No tech gives a too scripted game also. You can play LL if you fear complexity and non-scripted games

  • 2022 '15 '11 '10 Official Q&A Moderator

    I agree with Funcioneta here.  +1


  • seconded +1

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