DD spotting subs

Thanks for your honest comment Ozymandiac,
is the opening post easier to read and understand now?
Same information, different order.
I tried as much as possible to be clear in this new edited version.
Even the second post of this thread is just a more formalized way inspired by OOB 1942.2 written rules, which say same things than first opening post but with all words of official rules.

@Admiral:

Hi Baron,

I know it’s been a while since you posted this, but I have been toying with the idea of increasing air-to-air combat in a way that is very similar to what you have presented here.

I think the A2 D2-3 C6 Fighter is a very interesting idea. Having them target other air units before anything else is a simple and effective way to simulate that air-to-air combat. I also like how the combat values would now be the same in SBR (makes things simple).

I also really like how you altered Tactical Bombers to be A2-4 D3 C8. The two attack bonuses really give meaning to the importance to air supremacy.

I am curious to know how these two units have worked for you.

Thanks!

It evolves into this roster:
Baron’s HR units charts and set-up for 1941, 1942.2 and AA50
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36833.msg1469053#msg1469053

The main reason is because of too many combined arms and bonus for TcBs and Fgs.
Makes for longer combat round and more details to consider to get the correct bonus per combat round.
Since the point was about hitting directly other planes, I simplified the TcB special ability.
That way, combined arms is now reserved to ground units.
So, it is easier to focus on what is specific to Fg and TcB.
I always start combat rounds with preemptive AAA, then these two units (when present) fire, then all other units.
HTH.
Baron

@Zombie69:

Even though I don’t like house rules in general, I like the OP house rule in conjunction with the HR that allows submerging after one round against DD. The first HR makes subs a little weaker (can’t be used as fodder against planes) while the second makes them stronger (by letting them survive more battles). All in all, I think it balances out. It also has the advantage of being elegant and easy to use.

Glad you see it that way.
A still more simplified HR could be that keeping all OOB DDs rules with Subs and planes, each sides which have Destroyers must say whether or not Subs will be targeted in priority by planes.
If not, then anything but subs must be selected as planes casualties (unless their is nothing else except transports) by the owning player.

Very cool idea. I like it a lot.

:-D

HI A&A Gamers!  8-)

I just made a little resume about sub-pens, because after many hours of research about them, i think that clarification must be done about this great building. Thanks for the xeno forum, ive take many info here

enjoy!

–----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub-Pens ( may also be called U-Boat Pens) (based on Xeno world at war 2005 4Th.) The Best Rule!

The battle for the Atlantic and the German U-Boat offensive take on a new dimension as German subs hunt the Atlantic for British/U.S. merchant shipping and do steadily increasing IPC damage to the British war economy. Britain has to scramble to develop radar technology and set up a well positioned force to contain and counter the German U-boat menace. The sub pens provide a safe haven for German subs to sally forth from, do economic damage, and return to without much danger of being sunk in their protective pens.

Pens will play a key role, providing a safe place for subs to hide, which becomes important because of sub’s ability to convoy hunt. On the German player’s turn he can send his subs out on patrol to hunt convoys, do some damage to the British economy, and then scoot them back into the pen. The pens are a big headache for the British player and normally require a multi turn bombing campaign to get rid of (first the British player has to destroy French industry and Germany’s ability to replace the pens on France’s coast, then the British player can focus on taking out the pens themselves).

By Mike Xeno

Sub-pens are special fortified defensives buildings that protect submarines from air and sea attack by sheltering them. Germany (or all other players if you want) may produce sub-pens at a cost of 8 IPCs each. Sub-pens must be built in a sea zone adjacent to a land zone with an industrial complex, just like all naval units. The player may build any number of pens, but only one in a single sea area. Sub-pens may not move.

Submarines may be placed in sub-pens in order to help defend them from attacking aircraft. They may hold an amount of 2 subs maximum (optional rule: you can set an unlimited number). Sub-pens are treated as a “sea zone within a sea zone” (separate sea zone). When in the same sea zone as a sub-pen, submarines may move into or out of the sub-pen without any movement cost at any time during player’s turn. Newly built sub-pens can have subs on the board placed into them right away, and newly built subs can be placed immediately in a pen that is already on the board. Subs in a pen cannot choose to defend the sea zone of this pen.

Sub-pens are only vulnerable to air attack (They never take damage from naval units). Any other friendly or enemy ships have no effect on attacking, defending, etc with regards to the sub pen. Any friendly ships in the same sea zone can be attacked separately. The pen has a permanent A/A capacity that is used (and only be used) against attacking aircraft. The pen defends in combat just like a normal A/A gun, except when attacked by aircraft, sub-pen defend by rolling 3 dices (no matter the number of attacking aircraft) each round, with each roll of 1-2 scoring a hit. During an air attack on a sub-pen, submarines in a pen are considered automatically detected but they may choose to withdraw/submerge after each round of combat. Hits on a sub-pen hit the subs in the pen first, then the pen itself once all the subs are destroyed. Sub-pens also require two hits to be destroy, not just one. A damaged sub-pen defends on a 1 instead of a 2 and costs 3 IPCs to repair. If an enemy force conquers a territory with a sub-pen, that pen is destroyed and removed from play.

Resume

a) Roll 3 dices for the pen (no matter the number of attacking aircraft). Hit on a 2 or less.
b) Remove casualties for attacker (fighters and/or bombers.)
c) Roll dice for planes.
d) Remove casualties for defender (the subs is hit first/then calculated two hits for the sub-pen).
e) Subs may withdraw/submerge. (Follow standard Axis and Allies rules.)
f) Planes may retreat.
g) Next round of combat. Repeat step a)

Faqs:

Question:

Sub-pens have A/A capability. May they defend just in the case of an air attack against the pen or also in the case of over flight?

Answer:

Only in an attack on the pen. The pen doesn’t cover the global sea area, only the pen him-self.

Question:

It said pens have no zone of control. Does this mean I can attack a naval zone with a pen adjacent and just fight the units in the sea zone and not the ones from the pen?

Answer:

Yes, and the subs in the pen never support the units in the naval zone. Example: Germany has a sub pen with 2 subs in it on France, and a cruiser (all in the same sea zone). Britain decides to attack the sea zone with 2 battleships and a sub. Britain attacks only the cruiser. Germany defends with only the cruiser (the subs cannot assist). Britain may not attack the German sub pen and subs within it with its ships.

Question:

If I build subs in a pen may they be initially placed just in the pen or directly in the adjacent sea zone?

Answer:

Your choice.

Question:

Do I have to spend a movement point for transfer a sub (into/ out) a pen adjacent sea zone?

Answer:

No.

Question:

I thought that sub pens prevented subs from a naval attack, as sub pens themselves are given the same protection. That would mean the only way to kill a sub in a sub pen would be to risk an aerial attack?

Answer:

A sub-pen needs to be taken out with aerial attack or, it is destroyed if the land area it is attached to is captured by the enemy.

If something in this briefing seem wrong or bad, say it! and leave any suggestion or idea!  :-D

ty and have a good game!

Frank

Let me clarify my reasoning on point number 2:

Submarines defend at a zero because they are not firing back, they are battening the hatches, flooding the ballast tanks and adjusting the dive planes hoping to get below depth charge depth before being sunk. (Which is silly, I guess you should say destroyed not sunk, since they sink on purpose…)

Meanwhile, they attack at three because they quietly slip into range, hide in the waves, line up their shot just right and fire.  Since there is resistance to giving them called shot abilities (where they tell us who they aim for before firing, like Kaitens and Kamikazees did in AARe) I figure this is a solution that would work.

Also, it should be mentioned that I am assuming Super Submarines has been changed to Super Destroyers which would increase Destroyer Attack Power = to Submarine Power.

Submarines do not defend with a surface fleet, they travel solo usually way out ahead as scouts or raiding enemy shipping.  Treat them like transports if they are detected and defenseless.

yea i added in planes as attackers but if non transports are in the sea zone, they must attack as normal as per OOB.

Some would not mind marking up a board.

I do not agree with the mandatory surfacing part of this variation. Some subs remained virtually undetected on their voyages in the war. But the best way to win is to use them (make them appear.)KILL! :wink:

For #s on the szs (sea zones), he/you could use

labels that can be purchased at any office supply store, or a clear plastic sheet with the #s written on it and board corner marks (on the plastic) to know where to situate the sheet over the board, or a masterlist of sea sones.

I’ve used, and currently have some on my board, Avery brand 1/4" round color coding labels which come in a roll. They are very small and can be ignored if you want to play a regular game between trial runs. :)