Simple Air Combat Rule?


  • Sponsor 2017 TripleA '11 '10

    First off, since I’m new here, I apologize if this has been done already…

    I was reading other suggestions on adding air superiority to the game, but most seemed either too complex, or too decisive (fight to the death). Here’s my proposal:

    ANY TIME aircraft are involved in a battle (land, sea, or SBR), just use the SBR Escort rule for one round. It forces fighters to fight fighters, but only for one round. It gives defending fighters the chance to shoot down unguarded bombers in an attack. It also encourages the use of a diversified force by both attackers and defenders. Just think of the great carrier battles it would create against JPN and USA! I just never liked the fight to the death rule that I’ve seen.

    This step would happen between AA fire and regular combat. I guess that would be the opening fire step? The only thing I can’t decide is to use the SBR att/def values of 1/2 or the standard values of 3/4. Bombers would still defend themselves in air combat at 1.

    Thoughts?


  • Sponsor 2017 TripleA '11 '10

    …Or I could have looked harder and found this from B.Andersson:

    "Keep it simple to speed up the game, no separate “dog fights” before combat! Maybe for the more advanced players, but then my suggestion is:

    A dog fight always takes place in the opening fire step of combat, for the first cycle of combat only. Any hit scored in such a dog fight must be taken by a bomber or fighter, hence air units must be picked as casualties for a dog fight as long as enemy air units still excists. For the second or later cycle of combat fighters fire in opening fire step of combat as long as no enemy fighters are present. Otherwise still attack during the regular combat phase."

    My bad…



  • I never liked the air vs air to the death, or interceptors rules. Planes cost to much and it just shuts down SBR. Air vs air for 1 round is more appealing (may have to try it), mainly because its simpler . I need a way to get to those UK planes defending Moscow. Another way to handle it is to assign ftr hits @1 to air units if available, if not take a tank and work your way down. At times we also have added ftr rolls @ 4 , because def ftrs hit @ 4 and so does attacking jet fighters in AA50. With ftr hits at 1 & 4 assigned to air units first you can hit air about 1/2 the time. We have used this the last few games and it seems to work.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    My dogfight rule, back in the day of numerous and plentiful face to face games, was that each defending fighter neutralized one attacking fighter or bomber.  Neither were killed, they just did not participate in the battle.

    In that case, if the land was taken, the defending fighters could move 2 spaces to find a legal landing zone (instead of the one given to sunken carriers and their fighters.)

    The good part was that you didn’t lose expensive aircraft.  The bad part was that America always had more air power than whoever was defending!


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes but the solution to American air power or allied air advantage, is to alter air combat values. The normal rating is against ground targets, in AARHE we use a 1,2,3 system which does not chew up air power because you roll a 1 or 2 instead of a 3 or 4, so less stuff gets killed. Air hits do go against air targets, but most of these will miss. WE also allow the defender to retreat his planes and that minimizes loses too.



  • Are you saying rolls at 1 & 2 are assigned to air units but 3 & 4 goes to ground. Or that its air vs air, with hits at 1 & 2 only when both sides have air in land battles and 3 & 4 don’t hit any thing?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    no.

    air units roll out at hit only other air units:

    fighters 3
    dive bombers 2
    bombers 1
    jets 4

    so 3 fighters vs 4 fighters defending is 3 rolls of 3 or less vs. 4 rolls of 3 or less.

    If you remove optional DB unit then its 2’s and 2’s

    once one side with planes retreats the other side can now roll his own planes using normal air values.

    each air combat round runs concurrent with each land combat round, so if land retreats, the air must as well.

    This way no air gets chewed up too bad.



  • Ok I see. So its possible for you to score more hits then enemy planes in the air part.  Say you are attacking w/ 6 ftrs @ 2 vs 2 ftrs @ 2, you score 3 hits. Do you lose the extra kill or reassign extra hits to ground units?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Say you are attacking w/ 6 ftrs @ 2 vs 2 ftrs @ 2, you score 3 hits. Do you lose the extra kill or reassign extra hits to ground units?

    Extra hits ‘spill’ over to land targets.

    I would modify the defender @ 2 and attackers @1, which is like the Air escort rules.

    So if you bring in air its a 2:1 advantage for defenders, but should also limit loses because of the low combat values.



  • Thanks IL, I’ll bring it up next time we play. Might be an easier sell if we use the same modifiers in dog fights & escorts. We also have been experimenting with defender retreats after 2nd round of battle. This also helps save planes and other units.



  • @Imperious:

    WE also allow the defender to retreat his planes and that minimizes loses too.

    Hey it worked for Saddam Hussein….  😄

    Definitely can see the value of air retreat option.

    Anyway, thinking that in the absence of “dog fight to the death” the fighters shouldn’t have their full Attack/Defense values as long as enemy fighters are present… sort of like tactical dispersal and still watching their six while strafing keeping them at diminished intercept values… IMO


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The reduced values are realistic because the target is a fast moving plane and not a slow moving tank. Thus the ability to destroy this equipment cannot be the same if we are ranking the various combat values under the same system. This is why lower air combat values are needed. Even Larry added that escort rule using 2 for defense and 1 for attack. This is just a step up from that.



  • @Imperious:

    The reduced values are realistic because the target is a fast moving plane and not a slow moving tank.

    My point is: if you don’t dominate the skies, then you can’t loiter around doing the damage required to neutralize a dug-in infantry division, for example.

    IMO, there should be some decrease in fighter lethality if enemy fighters remain in the battlespace.


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