Could Germany have won "the Great Patriotic War?"



  • Could Germany have beaten Russia if a factor or two was changed?

    I read “What if 2” and one essay contended that even if Britian Made Peace with Germany, they would still lose to the Soviet Union.

    Without Western help, did Russia have a prayer?



  • In a short answer: The Germans didn’t have a chance.



  • Hitler WAS an idiot, but entire Panzer divisions in a 1-front war can only make so many mistakes.



  • Without the western allies in the war, the economy of germany would never have suffered that much. Resources would not have been that scarce. A tad more manpower would have been available.
    It is hard to say what might have happened. The war surely would have lasted longer. But who can say, wether the germans would have adapted to winter warfare, staging offensives in winter as well? Would they have attacked earlier in the year (with no necessary need to bring down Yugoslavia and Greece, as there would not be western allies who could use that countries as staging points)? Would Germany then have been able to capture Moscow and/or Leningrad?

    I can’t tell, but i am glad i don’t have to, and that there were western and eastern allies.



  • The British Parliament and Public would not allow it. Not after Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and France were gone.
    How would Pearl Harbor figure into this? Would it have happened? If so, would the German’s fight the USA? The UK would be drawn into it sooner or later. With all energies facing East, Germany’s goose is still cooked…



  • the Krauts could have won the Eastern Front even if the Brits and the Franks still put up a fight. Adolf could have won it in the summer/fall of 41 when Army Group Centre was on its way to moscow, but Adolf decided to send it south towards Kiev. by doing that he gave the Bolsheviks near moscow and the north time to regroup and it put the Typhoon ( Invasion to tajke moscow) in the Winter. had Army Group Centre contnued toward Moscow they would have taken it by October or some time in the fall. the Rusian Feild armies in North and Central Russia would have bin Anihilated. Stalin had intentions on staying in Moscow till the end. so if Stalin would have bin captured the Soviet State would have collapsed and the Russian Armies in LeninGrad and in the South would have no Commands coming from Moscow so they would have bin disorganized and Confused. Russia would have fell like that and a puppet Regime probably would have bin set up or a German Occupation. With Russia Fallen England would have no hope of an ally on the Continent and Germany would have all the Resources/Man power it would need to Wipe Britain of the facce of the Earth 😉 thats my 2 cents



  • Instinct tells me Stalin would have withdrawn himself at the end, if Moscow was overwhelmed. Then what? Set up command in the Urals, organize semi-autonomous resistance across the fronts, protect the factories beyond the Urals, harrass the German supply lines, etc.

    If the Germans had taken Moscow, the Soviets would do everything in their power to make it a worthless prize. Indeed, make it horribly expensive to hold. (Didn’t the Germans pretty much “take” Stalingrad, and then get trapped in the pocket there?)

    And Hitler would have found other mistakes to make along the way.

    The geographic fact of the enormity of Russia, and its huge, resilient population, makes it relatively simple for an enemy from the west to conquer vast territory – and extremely hard to hold.



  • Even Germany’s economy fully in the East wouldn’t have even come close to matching the Soviets. Besides, the German were lucky enough to do as well as they did… :-?



  • If Germany was fighting a one front war against the Russians, I belive they could have fought Russia to a stand still.

    I agree that taking Moscow would have done little in reguards to stopping the Russisans and in doing so, it would have been hell on earth.

    The Germany army was not made for street to street fighting.

    The Germans had 90% of Stalingrad at one point.
    They lacked the vital riverbank on the east side of the Volga which Russia was using to reinforce the city daily.
    It was a standoff there until Russia attacked the armies protecting the 6th armies flanks around stalingrad.
    The armies assigned to protect 6th army were Italians and Romania.
    Needless to say Russia rolled right over them.
    Some parts of the Italian army surrendered without even firing a shot.
    That attack encircled the German forces in and around Stalingrad and created a huge pocket.



  • Go Italian army!

    Mama didn’t raise Anthony to die in the frozen mud shooting at those gentle Russian farm boys.



  • @ZimZaxZeo:

    Go Italian army!

    Mama didn’t raise Anthony to die in the frozen mud shooting at those gentle Russian farm boys.

    LOL :lol: :lol:



  • Hey, Senor Ghoul:: Drumstix would like us to post our AAEuro game in the Games thread. Care to paste moves there as we go along? Fine by me….



  • Isn’t it funny that Poland would have been invaded even if Hitler had blitzed the French first? the USSR invaded Poland almost simultaneously; they were clearly out for gains, too. What an ally! :roll: With friends like these…



  • @ZimZaxZeo:

    Hey, Senor Ghoul:: Drumstix would like us to post our AAEuro game in the Games thread. Care to paste moves there as we go along? Fine by me….

    Ya
    Its all good.



  • Poland has inherited one of those geographic legacies of double-edged value. Wonderful farmland, central location, good waterfront = all benefits for the economy! But these translate militarily into nice, flat, easy-to-roll-up territory, immediately accessible by many foes from every direction!

    The book POLAND by James Michener is a great read. My favorite chapters cover the Euro Christianoid armies (from France, Germany & Poland) marching to Vienna with Jan Sobieski at the helm (circa 1270??), arriving just in time to break the siege by the Turks, marking the high-water mark of their invasion into Europe. The book has at least three chapters about Poland being overrun or in dire shape by invasions; the chapter titles, if memory serves, are simply: “From the East,” “From the West,” “From the South.”

    Another amazingly resilient tribe of people, the Poles (or Pollacks, depending on individual preference). After the living death of WWII and then 45 years of industrial zombiedom under the USSR, they inherited one of the most pervasive ecological wastelands on Earth, not to mention a bare-subsistence economy. Yet their efforts, led by Solidarnosc, were key to the crumbling of the Soviet Union, and now they have the strongest economy of the new members of the European Community.

    I guess there’s something special in that kielbasa!



  • I highly doubt the Russians could of fought the Germans solo for long. Here are my reasons.

    1. Without the British, the Germans would have their entire airforce free to bomb Russia.
    2. The German U-Boat and Navy fleets would be free to conduct heavier operations against the Russians (cutting off foreign aid).
    3. The Germans would probably take complete command of the Black Sea and amphibiously invade Geogia, cutting off the Russian oil supply.
    4. Berlin and German production facilities would be unharrassed.
    5. No African & Western Fronts


  • Nifty strategic points, Y-man.

    Does anyone know where to find decent info regarding how much materiel was provided to USSR by the Allies during WWII (e.g., percent of steel and other raw assets, percent of total Soviet armored vehicles, etc.)



  • Well, tank production I know was almost entirely Soviet. So was Oil and Food production. Allied aid probably came in communication equipment, intelligence, ground transport vehicles, Anti Aircraft guns, ect. Most of the front line stuff was Soviet Made, with Soviet Iron and running on Soviet Oil.



  • If Britian had stayed out of the war pearl habor would probably either not occur or result in a Yankish-Japanese war.

    If Halifax had become Prime Minister he might have ended it either to save the troops at Dunkirk. If the Germans hadn’t held back the British would have taken serious losses (100,000+ in dead and captured)



  • @city:

    Isn’t it funny that Poland would have been invaded even if Hitler had blitzed the French first? the USSR invaded Poland almost simultaneously; they were clearly out for gains, too. What an ally! :roll: With friends like these…

    Well, during the early stages of the war, there was a non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR. The USSR was not at all part of the allies until Germany attacked them. These good relations probably have historical roots as well, with the germans “launching” the revolution of 1917 (by bringing Lenin in), plus good relations during the Weimar Republic times. This and the attidute of the west of never fully accepting the USSR (until the germna invasion and only as long as the war lasted) as a partner might have led to to the russo-german partnership.
    And of course, both countries were dictatorships, with extremely ruthless dictators.



  • Strictly a marriage of convenience! For Hitler, keep Russia out of the situation until we are secure in the West. For Stalin, get my share of Polish real estate – which also just might be a buffer once this maniac gets set to attack me!

    For an eye-widening experience, check out the film “Alexander Nevsky” (silent B/W) in which Russia is a loosely defined territory, circa A.D. 1000, and this prince Nevsky must rally the people and soldiery to halt an invasion by… none other than the Teutonic knights – wait til you dig the bizarre yet strangely familiar helmets on these early German horsemen! Then there’s the amazing clash of mounted armies on the frozen lake (Ladoga?)

    Anyway, Russia has been invaded by swarms from the west since time immemorial. Stalin knew that, regardless of any warmer recent relations. Your point is nevertheless well taken F_alk, because there must have been open and somewhat cozy lines of communication for the secret pact dividing Poland to have been established. And look at relations since 1945: Germany and USSR were always ahead of the rest in doing business across the Iron Curtain. I maintain that geography is destiny: As the main economic power in Europe proper, due in part to its central location, Germany would always be the logical partner with a westward-looking Russia.

    ((The real way for Hitler’s Reich to have staying power would have been to keep Russia on its side – how about THAT as a topic: how would the African and Balkan fronts have worked out, not to mention the plans to take down Britain, had Berlin-Moscow relations remained cordial? A chilling prospect.))



  • @ZimZaxZeo:

    Strictly a marriage of convenience! For Hitler, keep Russia out of the situation until we are secure in the West. For Stalin, get my share of Polish real estate – which also just might be a buffer once this maniac gets set to attack me!

    For an eye-widening experience, check out the film “Alexander Nevsky” (silent B/W) in which Russia is a loosely defined territory, circa A.D. 1000, and this prince Nevsky must rally the people and soldiery to halt an invasion by… none other than the Teutonic knights – wait til you dig the bizarre yet strangely familiar helmets on these early German horsemen! Then there’s the amazing clash of mounted armies on the frozen lake (Ladoga?)

    I heard about that movie. Do you know when it was shot? Anyway, in the late WW1, the germans already had that helmet that they used in WW2 as well.
    THe movie btw was banned by Stalin during the non-agression time 🙂
    For more info: see
    http://www.dvdreview.com/html/alexander_nevsky___ivan_the_terrible.html

    so, it was shot 1938 🙂 … and the lake was Lake Chudskoe called “Ledovoe Poboishche”…

    …((The real way for Hitler’s Reich to have staying power would have been to keep Russia on its side – how about THAT as a topic: how would the African and Balkan fronts have worked out, not to mention the plans to take down Britain, had Berlin-Moscow relations remained cordial? A chilling prospect.))

    Well, i guess than it would all have looked differently. I guess, we would have had a world of more superpowers then after the war: the US, east-european-asian USSR, central-west european Germany. The question is wether Japan would have done Pearl Harbor, or sticked to it’s chinese war.



  • Japan’s motives in East Asia hand nothing to do with what Germany was doing.
    Japan had been growing their sphere of influence long before WW2.
    The Americans had sanctions against them as well.

    The motives behind attacking Pearl Harbour was a question of survival for the Empire of Japan, at the time.



  • what if germany had not attach russia and made peace with th UK?



  • @F_alk:

    @ZimZaxZeo:

    For an eye-widening experience, check out the film “Alexander Nevsky” (silent B/W) in which Russia is a loosely defined territory, circa A.D. 1000, and this prince Nevsky must rally the people and soldiery to halt an invasion by… none other than the Teutonic knights – wait til you dig the bizarre yet strangely familiar helmets on these early German horsemen! Then there’s the amazing clash of mounted armies on the frozen lake (Ladoga?)

    I heard about that movie. Do you know when it was shot? Anyway, in the late WW1, the germans already had that helmet that they used in WW2 as well.
    THe movie btw was banned by Stalin during the non-agression time 🙂
    For more info: see
    http://www.dvdreview.com/html/alexander_nevsky___ivan_the_terrible.html

    so, it was shot 1938 🙂 … and the lake was Lake Chudskoe called “Ledovoe Poboishche”…

    Right – great link you found there! The director, Sergei Eisenstein, is probably the greatest Russian filmmaker of the 20th century. Yet he was accused by Stalin of, among other things, “nostalgia” and hounded. His most often celebrated film is “Battleship Potemkin” which is built around the 1917 Russian Revolution, and is known for its amazing imagery and editing: one image in particular is a cinematic icon: the baby carriage by itself bumping down the vast stairs of the city hall after the crowd has been fired upon.

    Right you are on the helmets – but think of seeing a version as early as 1250!! Talk about enduring design!


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