Need HELP with J1 again, when UK/Russia is a pain.



  • Well I need help again with J1 :(.

    The situation looks something like the following:

    6 Russian inf in bury
    4 Russian inf in Sink (Perhaps this doesn’t happen.)
    1 Russian armor in Yak (Perhaps this doesn’t happen.)
    2 Russian fighters in Kaz (Perhaps this doesn’t happen.)
    1 UK bomber in Nov/Kaz/Cauc
    1 UK Sub in sz45 (Plan on it killing the Japan sub.)
    1 UK tranny in sz36
    1 UK DD AND AC in sz59
    1 UK tranny in sz47
    1 UK Fighter either in sz59 OR in bury OR with Pearl fleet (1. Which ever you find worse for Japan, in that case, where would you put it?)

    To me this is pretty much the worse shape that Japan could be in. 2. If your goal is to make Japan be in the hardest starting position possible, would you go for borneo with a UK tranny and leave your UK AC in sz36 or would the above be the best thing for UK to do? Any other changes that you can see to make Japan be in the roughest starting position possible?

    3. As Japan, what would you do in this situation? I buy 1 AC and 1 tranny and save the rest. I usually hit Pearl hard with all that can make it, probably with tranny to take a hit. I also hit China with all inf AND two fighters to try to have the average of 5 inf left over. The two fighters will land on new AC. I hate going for a tranny with a fighter, but I’d probably go for one tranny with my sixth fighter. 4. Would you go for a tranny with a fighter? My second fleet will probably hit another UK ship, maybe sz47/sz36. The problem is that I can’t hit sz59, unless I don’t go with Pearl or go Pearl light, which neither option I do, so my new fleet and my sz47/sz36 fleet is at risk from 4/5 UK attacking units. 5. Should I not hit pearl? If UK sinks my new fleet on UK2, then Japan will be slowed down even more, perhaps too much to recover.

    6. Plan on your Japan sub being killed, but if it survives, would that change your plans much?


  • 2016 2015 '10

    You mean the tranny is in SZ 36 right?

    I wouldn’t buy any new fleet in this situation, but instead try to form 2 strong fleets–-attacking China, Pearl, 36 and sending 1 fig after the SZ 47 tranny.  In that case, the fleet in SZ 59 can be safely ignored, even if the Brit fighter landed there.

    This suggests to me that the stronger move is landing the fig on the Pearl fleet, as this helps kill the sub and exposes Japan to some risky dice (though not THAT risky if Japan brings sufficient units).  In that case, perhaps it’s worth skipping Pearl (but maybe not in this particular instance since Borneo was not taken and there is no India factory).  It’s no longer clear to me that the Japs should hit Pearl in every instance–nor does it seem clear cut that the Americans should always go after the Japs if they skip Pearl.



  • 7. If there was an IC in India, would that change what you would do on J1? If so, how?



  • yeah zhukov, it’s a tough call what to do with that uk fighter.  I actually partially bring it to bury because i can still lose a unit in the sea battle against the jap transport on turn 1 unless i bring truly overwhelming force 😛 (1 destroyer, 1 fighter, maybe 1 carrier)

    But more importantly, if bury does not have a fighter on it, I think it’s in japan’s interest to take it out.  this protects sz 60 better from us air attack, and puts a big deposit in the bank for taking out russia later.

    as for japan’s response, I recommend not hitting pearl, it’s a problem one can deal with later, but it simply takes too many resources to do it safely.  Buckle down for a long fight with the US if that’s what the US wants, but that fight at least can be a good thing for the axis as it’s expensive and slow for the allies.

    Alternately, I might do pearl if bury is defended, and if I can kill all the uk transports and build 2 IC’s safely on the mainland, in which case Japan has no really critical transports to defend and doesn’t have to deal with the UK pesky fleet right away.


  • 2016 2015 '10

    The fighter to Bury is a nice option–this makes it hard for Japan to protect new transports.

    When I go anti-Japan with UK (which is often these days) I typically spread the UK fleet out, so that Japan has a hard time hitting everything it needs to and hitting Pearl or Bury with sufficient force, and go for the sub with the fighter.  I’m still on the fence whether this is stronger than just hitting Borneo with the fighter keeping the carrier there.

    As for Japan, I used to hit Bury instead of Pearl and had tons of success with it, but it is risky when a skilled USA comes for you (especially if there are some UK units left to back USA up) as Japan has a tough time going toe to toe.  This kind of game is hard for Axis to win in the long game–Germany needs to prevail against Russia but will have to fight both UK and Russia.  Once the Allies get Africa economics swing back in the Allies favor, as Japan won’t be able to soak IPCS from the UK with the USA on their back.

    I think the Bury attack has its best effect in conjunction with certain German deployments–where Axis want the USA to come Pacific and ignore the Atlantic.  The plan (presumably taking Moscow) just needs to work because if USA comes for Japan they have a 34 ipc head start.



  • What I would love to do if I was convinced that US was going pacific would be to hit China, Pearl, one fig to 47, BB and AC to 36 and Midway with Arm/Inf.  Buy 2 bombers and sink whatever he puts in the water.  You could feasibly bring 3 Bom, 4 figs, BB, AC, DD (maybe sub, but not in BB’s scenario).  If US buys 2 AC, Fig (max defense), on LL you likely would still have BB, AC, 1/2 Figs to survive and retreat with on next turn as US only has one Bom that could get there.

    IF US retakes Midway, he weakens his stack. And you can pick off his BB, possibly everything else on the West Coast.

    UK Fleet has few places to run that are safe.  If all he has is AC,DD and Sub - could attack with BB, AC, 2 Figs or wait one round and use the Figs in Asia.

    I normally play dice, so I would probably opt for a safer strat, but this would be fun.



  • If Russia is foolish enough to stack 6inf in Bur (even with the UK ftr), then ignore Pearl (the US just gets a fighter, a carrier that is far away from the Atlantic, and a sub to take a hit – eventually) and decimate Buryatia with a battleship bombardment, units and air power. That is goal one.

    And after that make sure you take China, which shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

    Probably send the western fleet to kill the UK’s des and ac (maybe peeling off some air to help out).

    If your bomber or any other air can be spared to pick off the UK sub or transport (especially the trn), do so. But be careful: If there are any other transports in range (such as the US), they could kill the bomber after it lands. East Indies might be a safe bet, if the attack on UK2 would be 2inf vs 2inf 1bmb.

    I wouldn’t be too concerned with New Guinea. In this situation, it would be too much hassle to retake on J1. Even if Borneo fell, I’d probably still blast Buryatia. But once again, that can get tricky because the UK could potentially stick a ship off the Philippines and prevent a J2 retake.

    Still though, killing 6 Russian infantry on J1 allows Japan to really dash to Moscow.



  • I don’t see assaulting 6 Infantry 1 Fighter with only 4 landunits, BB and airsupport as a safe battle. Furthermore there will be 4 infantry+1fighter in China the next turn. Again not too easy a battle. If these battles go a bit wrong for Japan they really are in a bad situation. It’s a tad too risky for me.



  • Playing with Low Luck dice, 85% of the time

    3inf 1art 4ftr 1bmb (1bb)
    vs
    6inf 1ftr

    will leave Japan with an artillery and air, or just its air. Without the UK fighter, Japan will take Bur with 1-3 land units plus air, but I still think attacking 6inf 1ftr works out in Japan’s favor.

    Two fighters and infantry from Kwa/FIC can take care of China. And the way to Moscow is suddenly much more clear of Russian infantry.



  • Bury with the fighter is a risk that my Japan would never take. Even without the fighter, it could go bad unless I had another tranny.

    So far I think my two best options are to:

    1. Buy 1 IC 1 Fig and do pearl.
    2. Skip pearl and buy trannies and take out all UK ships.

    I think #2 is the best option. I’m starting to go back to my old belief that buying an AC on J1 is just stupid.


  • Moderator

    Pretty much guaranteed, I will hit Pearl (Heavy as possible) and China (all land inf + a couple of planes).  Everything else will depend on other units available.  IIRC I think you can still hit the UK DD/AC in Sz 59.
    I may consider using the trn as fodder at Pearl, if I need planes for Sz 59.

    If I can go DD+ 2 trn buy, I’d do that and place in Sz 61, otherwise I’d go AC+trn for sz 61.

    It’s obviously a KFJ setup so all you need to do is keep your fleet alive.  You can deadzone Man/Fic and easily pick them back up on J2 while thinning out the Allies resistance.  Your BB’s can hit Bury on J2 as well.  I think you can get one in position for a Man or Fic counter as well.

    The real key here is Germany.  They better be blitzing all over Afr and I’d look for an immediate G1-2 stack of Ukr (or Kar).  Worst case would be to stack Belo.  Russia won’t be able to slow you down with inf dedicated to Sin and an Arm out in Yak (if they do that).

    I would really look for an immediate stack of Ukr (or Kar) on G1 though.  If Russia telegraphs Bury stack + Sin inf + Arm to Yak.  Send All available German units to Ukr (including trn with 2 SE inf and BB-support).
    With a Lib Bid, Egy should still fall.  With a Ukr stack you have immediate pressure on Cauc/Wrus.  I’d consider Armor heavy buys (maybe 5 inf, 5 arm).  If you have to stack Kar or Belo instead of Ukr at least you can put immediate pressure on Wrus.  Russia should quickly be missing the Inf that they sent East.

    Again, step up the pressure with Germany and just keep the J fleet alive while doing max damage to China, Pearl and the 1-2 other battles you can manage on J1.  With the increased German pressure, the Allied counters, particularly in the land battles in Asia, start to dry up b/c that means committing Russian troops further East while the real threat is Germany who should be immediately pressuring Wrus/Cauc.



  • You can’t do all of that with the setup that I showed you AND have your fleets safe, which as you agree is the most important thing. How could you possible safely take out sz59 AND pearl AND protect your new trannies? With a few semi-bad roles, your fleet at pearl will be sunk on US1 OR your new trannies would be destroyed on UK2 OR your china infantry could be destroyed on R2.

    I think your spread too thin and your open to some battles that could easily go very bad for you.

    Remember, in sz59 there was the UK DD and AC and the UK fighter was at Bury. Lets also say your Japan sub was gone. Don’t forget that your sz47 fleet is blocked from sz59 by a sz36 UK tranny and the UK bomber is in range.


  • Moderator

    J ftrs can hit Sz 59.  BB can take out the trn in Sz 36.

    You ignore the trn in Sz 47 and sub in at Sol.

    Pearl Lite is an option (if your sub survives)
    1 sub, 1 dd, 2 ftrs, 1 bom.

    You may have to buy AC and DD on J1 to be safe, or use your Sz 60 trn as fodder somewhere.

    You can go:
    7 inf, 1 ftr to Chi
    3 ftrs to Sz 59
    1 bb to sz 36

    That leaves you with
    1 bb, 1 dd, 1 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 bom, 1 trn, maybe sub for Pearl

    With the sub, you probably won’t need the trn.  Without the sub you might need the trn for fodder.

    You can also try something like this:

    Pearl - sub, dd, 2 ftrs, 1 bom (jap)
    Sz 36 - 1 bb (sz 48)
    Sz 59 - 3 ftrs (2 sz 37, 1 man), 1 bb (sz 60)
    Chi - 7 inf, 1 ftr

    This conserves your 2 AC to move on Non-Combat and the BB can soak a hit in Sz 59.

    Also, I think you can go Pearl with air only maybe 3 ftrs, 1 bom (US sub can’t shoot) and use a BB and DD in Sz 59 with 2 planes.

    New units have to be placed in Sz 61 for safety though.



  • darth,

    your attacks are reasonable (though potentially expensive), but you’ve basically resolved to build no transports (since they’re not safe even in sz 61), so there’s not much point to building a carrier or destroyer unless you’re trying to pre-empt a us naval buildup or a bad pearl result.

    in your response scenario, I would recommend an IC on kwangtung, since you are potentially transport-less for a full round and need the ability to re-build mainland forces. against an allied land push.


  • Moderator

    @eumaies:

    darth,

    your attacks are reasonable (though potentially expensive), but you’ve basically resolved to build no transports (since they’re not safe even in sz 61), so there’s not much point to building a carrier or destroyer unless you’re trying to pre-empt a us naval buildup or a bad pearl result.

    It really depends on what you do with your initial trn.  If you don’t need it for fodder in the attacks a likely spot would be Sz 61, in which case if you bought an AC and 1 trn you’ll have 2 trns, 1 ac, 2 ftrs in Sz 61.  I’m not sure UK attacks that.  Even if they do it’ll be costly to them.  Or you go AC/DD and are left with 1 trn, 1 dd, 1 ac, 2 ftrs in Sz 61.

    @eumaies:

    in your response scenario, I would recommend an IC on kwangtung, since you are potentially transport-less for a full round and need the ability to re-build mainland forces. against an allied land push.

    I’m not a fan of an IC on J1 and not in this case since you’ll likely have to place it on Kwa.  If you do buy an IC and the US continues to go after Japan you could be in trouble.  You don’t need it for production and now you’re stuck having to defend it while trying to keep your remaining fleet alive.  You also don’t know how your rd 1 attacks will go.  I think it is a little easier to plan for the worst when you buy a little navy support.



  • yeah i agree your plan has some built in flexibility.  carrier + tran build in sz 61 is perfectly safe once you’ve taken out the UK ships.

    On the other hand, the UK factory is basically gonna be in great shape given that carrier build and no IC’s.  Correct response of US hitting the atlantic hard and India holding up japan for a long time should make for a pretty easy allies win.  I really don’t think spending $16 on a carrier and getting only 1 transport to support additional land operations on R1 before the US has played its hand is a serious option as japan.  You may not enjoy protecting an IC in kwangtung but it’s far easier than protecting that one transport you built.


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