Islaam really isn't as violent as you think


  • I’ll post some mroe quotes later, but something very interesting in them is how Mohammed twists many things in the Quran, especially in regard to Judaism. In the quote above he claimed that the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God, something completely untrue. Mohammed’s quotations against the people of the scriptures were most likely due to his anger that the Jews did not accept him when he came to them in Medina. When it comes to fanaticism, it is much easier to gather followers when the quotes directly tell one to attack others such as the Sura 9:29, rather than when they are not as clear. I dont think Islam is a horrible religion, I simply believe that sometimes the literal words in Quran can really be anatagonistic and have helped to create such organizations as Al Qaeda. That does not mean that Islam is a horrible religion. I think it means that it is easier for Islamic fundamentalists to gather followers because of the language in their holy book as opposed to some other religions.


  • It all depends on the translation really. I don’t speak any Arabic, but I know with Latin, you can tranlate one sentance as “Lazy Shopkeeper” or translate the same sentence into “Cowardly Bouncer”.


  • @EmuGod:

    Mohammed’s quotations against the people of the scriptures were most likely due to his anger that the Jews did not accept him when he came to them in Medina. When it comes to fanaticism, it is much easier to gather followers when the quotes directly tell one to attack others such as the Sura 9:29, rather than when they are not as clear.

    I do not see what is so bad about 9:29…
    after the defeat, the people of the scripute have to pay a tribute and can retain their faith. The tribute has to be paid by adults, with a clear mind, who can fight and are able to pay the tribute. Kids, women, men who can’t work and others who have no income don’t have to pay.

    They are citizens second class, true, but have more freedoms than you probably would believe: alcohol and pork is allowed to them, they have their own laws concerning marriage and heritage… but exactly this has been admitted elsewhere on the board for some people living in Israel.

    What about Sura 2:256, something like: “there are no obligations in religion”?


  • If an athiest were to bring up a Biblical reference which seemed to be commanding evil, Christians would provide a defense by explaining the passage of Scripture. So, if I, as a Christian, bring up even more Q’uaranic quotes than are already listed, should not the Muslim community provide an interpretation of the phrase, “Fight against those to whom the Scriptures are given, who believe not in Allah…”

    I’d love to hear the explanation, because silence on the subject equals suspicion.


  • @city:

    I’d love to hear the explanation, because silence on the subject equals suspicion.

    Then get a muslim in here… i bet he/she can explain.


  • Well, Christian terrorists killed many more than Muslim terrorists. Millions died during the witch hunts. Hundreds of thousands of innocents died during the Crusades to Christians, who showed almost no mercy. On the other hand, barely a single Christian innocent was killed by a Muslim. The violence we’re seeing is relatively tame (700 Israelis dead, 3000 Americans).

    Does that make it any less important of an issue for the Muslims to address?


  • No, however what I am saying is the violence problem has nothing to do with the Muslim religion. Every single Religion in the world causes violence. The problem lies with the nature of established religion.


  • tell us something we don’t know… :-?


  • A few undeniable facts: feel free to investigate these claims…

    The country that has the largest number of slaves is Sudan.

    Over 98% of those slaves are BLACK CHRISTIANS who are fighting and losing to better armed Arab Muslims. Over 55% of those black Christian slaves are under the age of 18.

    Chew on that for a bit…

    Anyway, I hate to be rude, but I will be. If you honestly think that thousands of Christians don’t die annually in Muslim countries, your head is buried in the sand. The Muslim people in those countries may be nice people, but the dictators who lead them are not. Those foreign governments hunt down and seek out ALL other religions beside Islam. Two of my family friends, Shaun and Ahmal S--------, are Christian missionaries in a country I can’t mention. They have told us in letters that if they are discovered, they will be beheaded…

    America doesn’t sound so evil now, does it…


  • Tell me how this is linked to the Muslim religion. The Christian Roman Empire’s population was almost 20% slaves. The United States endorsed slavery until 1860.

    Sudan has no Government. Slavery is not law. There is no law. Unfortunately, the anarchy that has developed has caused some horrible things. Slavery, ethnic wars, religious wars, and just plain death.

    I’ve been saying for months that we need to go into Sudan. But not as a military force. We need to go in and help the people who need help. Because there is no Government, there is also no real organized resistance, we won’t need to fight large scale battles, or kill large numbers of people with aerial bombing.

    Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa. Somalia, Ethiopia, and Sudan are 3 reasons why terrorism exists. Dictators, Terrorists, and Drug Dealers all prosper in poverty. And this region has enough poverty to go around.

    But thats the problem. When you mix extreme poverty with any moving force, in this case religion, people take their hate out on others. In this case it just happens to be Muslims killing Christians. However, any racial, ethnic, or economic group can experience the same thing. We saw during the French Revolution, during Hitler’s rise and fall and during countless other periods of history.

    During the French Revolution, the third estate was entrenched in serfdome, lack of food, and an oppressive upper class. When they overthrew that upper class, they took out their hate on them. Thousands of upper classmen died, mostly to mob violence.

    Nazism is the perfect example of what poverty can do. Hitler rose during the deepest trench of the Great Depression. The German people were 10x worse off than Americans were, as were most Europeans. Hitler took advantage of this, and was able to seize power. He was able to use the Jews as scapegoats, successfully controlling the hate of the German people.

    Terrorism is created in the same way. When people are oppressed, poor, and starving, they eventually crack. When they crack, extremists, radicals, and people who you normally would not let in your house come to power. They are charismatic and intelligent enough to take advantage of a person’s emotions, and manipulate them.

    We cannot combat terrorism with guns. We have to destroy it’s source, extreme poverty. Thats what I am trying to do here. If we blame the Islaamic religion, we are never going to solve this problem. We have to focus on the solution, or the bloodshed will continue. We have the power, and the responsiblity, as the #1 nation in the world, to help other nations survive and prosper.

    This thread was ment by me to tie together my beliefs about why we should not be going to war with Iraq, and also why Israel is wrong in it’s actions.


  • Nazism is the perfect example of what poverty can do. Hitler rose during the deepest trench of the Great Depression. The German people were 10x worse off than Americans were, as were most Europeans. Hitler took advantage of this, and was able to seize power. He was able to use the Jews as scapegoats, successfully controlling the hate of the German people.

    Not just poverty; humiliation.


  • Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa.

    Wrong. These people need to help themselves.


  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa.

    Wrong. These people need to help themselves.

    You know, this is exactly the attitude that does not work in an ER. The number of times that you’d like to say “look - help yourself buddy. You got yourself into this mess now get yourself out” does no body any good. The guy/girl is going to leave, having been further devalued, and mess up again, but bigger. Maybe finishing the job on his wife, or herself, or just finding a snowbank to call it an end in. A few hours in a warm hospital bed, some fluids, a little TLC (maybe a stich, some valium to help with the shakes, etc) and this person will hopefully leave a little more “human” than when s/he arrived. Often that is just enough to help them get their lives turned around. Maybe it is a waste of time, but i believe that doing what is right is never a “waste of time”. It benefits at the least me as a person, even if the effects don’t last longer than 2 days for my patient - but at least that will be two days of non-hellish existance on earth.
    But East Africa is not an ER you might say. Well, it is in a way. A massive ER on a massive scale with people who don’t know where to turn, where to get help, how to get out of their situation. The medical, educational, spiritual needs of these people have been undervalued by so many that they have lost sight of these values themselves. It’s amazing what someone can say or do to turn someone else’s life around. Applying a little value to these people’s lives in meaningful ways may do wonders to helping them see the values in their own lives - often lost or misplaced or trampled over by evil regimes. If we help these people - give them food, love, and a sense of their own value in the world, who know what potential they may have. Even if they have no potential and end up killing each other anyway, at least we’ll know that we’d have tried to do the right thing.


  • Exept the word “spiritual”, as the words “god”, “christiany”, “good” and “evil” are not present in the text of CC, i completly agree. And Deviant; you will learn that the difference between the poor nation and the rich one will be more and more problematic, we will have to live as one people someday. I know it’s not for tomorrow, but at least we should try, and strating by stopping saying it’s all their fault, we are in part guilty of their poverty.

    Also it’s hard to “help youself” when you are not eating enough.


  • Right. And as Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out, it is hard to feel urgent concern for the starving masses across the sea when you just had a really nice, filling meal.

    You know, if police robots were sent here by superintelligent types from across the Galaxy (see “The Day the Earth Stood Still”) these powerful, mute robots wouldn’t give a sht about anybody’s religions or fanaticisms, etc. They would issue commands to lay down arms, and issue deadlines.
    Or else.
    That’s it.
    We would have to quickly figure out ways to live together.
    The freakin robots would not take down names, numbers, or hear stories about who hit who first and whose g
    d said to do this or not that but only under the following circumstances, etc.

    When is this human species gonna grow up awreddy bruddas!?
    Since the robots have yet to land, we can only look into the mirror – namely, the faces of our children!
    We owe it to these little heroes to stop preaching, teaching, wishing and acting hate. It’s all about getting off our duffs and doing good.
    And fast.
    And keeping at it.

    In the meantime, we inherit from our blessed (and otherwise) ancestors this current mess. What these folks in wartorn lands need to learn is the same thing: live together. To heal. And when they cannot get there on their own, then we do have to march in, if “we” are the organizations (nations, leagues, federations, clubs, armies, tribes) who have the superior wherewithal. We have to, morally – and even for our own selfish good, long-term. We have to hose them down, send them to neutral corners, get em talking again – instead of killing.

    But let’s not be simplistic about the choices. There are plenty of reasons smart people, sensitive people, can differ on what to do about Iraq, for example. And how to go about it. Military solutions are a narrow channel approach. And no seasoned military commander would ever advocate a 100-percent military solution to the kinds of problems we are talking about. By definition there are political, economic, and oh all right spiritual components to human strife. We have to play hard but play fair.

    Getting back to the robots, they wouldn’t wonder about any of this. Not in the job description.
    Their masters might spend a few minutes pondering how human belief structures and habits of thought ever got so funky and twisted and absurd and crusty. But these programmers of the robots would ultimately be concerned only with results. Peace & quiet among the communities of the Galaxy.
    Now, there is an opening here for someone to advocate world dictatorship and a single religion or some such nonsense as the only way to keep the robots from vaporizing us – “everybody form a line, repeat after me, etc. and nobody gets hurt.” Just as there is an opening for someone to advocate world democracy and tolerance and celebration of our differences, and nonviolent conflict resolution, and healing.

    Hope our kids are ready, got their thang together when the robots show up.


  • Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa. Somalia, Ethiopia, and Sudan are 3 reasons why terrorism exists. Dictators, Terrorists, and Drug Dealers all prosper in poverty. And this region has enough poverty to go around.

    American has already poured billions of dollars in food, medical, and other supplies being sent to Africa. More often then not it ends up in the hands of the wrong people or uttlerly wasted. It is easy to say help out the “needy,” but without a clear plan and a course of action these promises are worthless. Investment is needed, but in the hands of the right people. The question is what plan will work best?

    We have the power, and the responsiblity, as the #1 nation in the world, to help other nations survive and prosper.

    Ha, try saying that to a capitalistic country, the cause of such extreme poverty in Africa… :-?

    Right. And as Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out, it is hard to feel urgent concern for the starving masses across the sea when you just had a really nice, filling meal.

    You know, if police robots were sent here by superintelligent types from across the Galaxy (see “The Day the Earth Stood Still”) these powerful, mute robots wouldn’t give a sht about anybody’s religions or fanaticisms, etc. They would issue commands to lay down arms, and issue deadlines.
    Or else.
    That’s it.
    We would have to quickly figure out ways to live together.
    The freakin robots would not take down names, numbers, or hear stories about who hit who first and whose g
    d said to do this or not that but only under the following circumstances, etc.

    When is this human species gonna grow up awreddy bruddas!?
    Since the robots have yet to land, we can only look into the mirror – namely, the faces of our children!
    We owe it to these little heroes to stop preaching, teaching, wishing and acting hate. It’s all about getting off our duffs and doing good.
    And fast.
    And keeping at it.

    In the meantime, we inherit from our blessed (and otherwise) ancestors this current mess. What these folks in wartorn lands need to learn is the same thing: live together. To heal. And when they cannot get there on their own, then we do have to march in, if “we” are the organizations (nations, leagues, federations, clubs, armies, tribes) who have the superior wherewithal. We have to, morally – and even for our own selfish good, long-term. We have to hose them down, send them to neutral corners, get em talking again – instead of killing.

    But let’s not be simplistic about the choices. There are plenty of reasons smart people, sensitive people, can differ on what to do about Iraq, for example. And how to go about it. Military solutions are a narrow channel approach. And no seasoned military commander would ever advocate a 100-percent military solution to the kinds of problems we are talking about. By definition there are political, economic, and oh all right spiritual components to human strife. We have to play hard but play fair.

    Getting back to the robots, they wouldn’t wonder about any of this. Not in the job description.
    Their masters might spend a few minutes pondering how human belief structures and habits of thought ever got so funky and twisted and absurd and crusty. But these programmers of the robots would ultimately be concerned only with results. Peace & quiet among the communities of the Galaxy.
    Now, there is an opening here for someone to advocate world dictatorship and a single religion or some such nonsense as the only way to keep the robots from vaporizing us – “everybody form a line, repeat after me, etc. and nobody gets hurt.” Just as there is an opening for someone to advocate world democracy and tolerance and celebration of our differences, and nonviolent conflict resolution, and healing.

    Hope our kids are ready, got their thang together when the robots show up.

    And when the filibustering is over, what are the answers? :-?


  • TG - while i agree w/ your first statement, your second one is far too simplistic. There are far too many reasons for the poverty in Africa, and to simply say “oh, its the fault of capitalistic countries” robs a lot of people of their responsibility. It also doesn’t work. It does not make it rain more “conveniently” in drought areas, it does not undo centuries of imperialism as well as the subsequent backlash occurring in such countries as Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique, South Africa, etc. It does not end skirmishs and wars between countries that seem to long have forgotten the reasons for continued violence (Ethiopia and Eritria) - the reason for increasing numbers of armed children. Despite the best efforts of missionaries, the Peace Corps, the UN and various other NGO’s and GO’s there is not nearly enough education about everything from agriculture to birth control. Throw in centuries of “denominationalism” - warring between various religious sects within one religion etc, and it becomes much more complicated then “well, the west is selling weapons and not pulling its weight”. Africa is relatively untouched by the US it seems (particularly relative to Latin and South America, the Middle East and South Pacific).


  • There are far too many reasons for the poverty in Africa, and to simply say “oh, its the fault of capitalistic countries” robs a lot of people of their responsibility

    Of course I could give a much more indepth reply, but knowing me, is there really any need for one? Were any of these countries given proper time for developement by themselves in the face of Imperialistic exploitation? How can you encourage economic investment where the economic profits are often negative? Why produce when your supply is below your variable cost? :-?


  • @city:

    If you honestly think that thousands of Christians don’t die annually in Muslim countries, your head is buried in the sand. … Those foreign governments hunt down and seek out ALL other religions beside Islam. Two of my family friends, Shaun and Ahmal S--------, are Christian missionaries in a country I can’t mention. They have told us in letters that if they are discovered, they will be beheaded…

    Being a christian and being a missionary is two different things.
    I don’t know where you get your information from, but i suspect that these thousands of christians die because they are christians.
    I also supsect that all other religions are hunted down, the oil exporting countries at least have a lot of corporations from christian countries sitting there, with the ver much needed engineers etc., there are quite some tourists in these countries. I know these are no permanent residents, but it still is in conflict with what you say.
    For missionaries: well, it should be well known that it is a dangerous job in islamic countries. I don’t agree with how they are treated, but i don’t see any sense in missionaric work either.


  • CC, ZZZ, Yanny and Fin already wrote what i would have added here.


  • We have not done enough to help East Africa. Its the whole “Give a man to fish, you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime”.

    We need to build educational, agricultural, and other Government infrastructure up in these countries to solve the problem. The reason Africa is in such bad condition is because of us, the Western Imperialists. We exploited them for our own needs, and left a bad legacy on the continent. We should at least try to turn that legacy into a positive one.


  • My dad volunteered with Frontier College back in the 60’s. I think they did a lot of the infrastructure work that you’re talking about Yanny - building hospitals and schools, water supplies, etc. I don’t know where they’ve all been - i know my dad was posted to Nigeria . . . .


  • And Nigeria is a lot better off because of the facilities we (and the oil companies) have built there. However, in East Africa, all we’ve done is send food. And most of the time, this food doesn’t get into the hands of the people, because there is no organized Government, and a gang of thugs with guns take the food and sell it for their own benefit.


  • Exactly.


  • “Fight those who do not believe in God and the Last Day”
    -Koran

    WIthin a few decades of it’s inception, Islam fought Persia, Byzantium, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, and fought 3 civil wars.

    The major clerics in citites like Medina are often calling for the destruction of Jews, Hindus, and Christians.

    The Koran calls the Jews Christ Killers.

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