Islaam really isn't as violent as you think



  • After doing some research (kinda by accident) I’ve discovered that Islaam really isn’t a thing like we see reflected with terrorists today. For example:

    According to the Koran, a Muslim is not aloud to kill in “cold blood”. To support this, during the era of the Crusades, Muslims were radically different from Catholics in their handling of prisoners of war. Catholics simply executed the vast majority of captured Muslims. The Muslims usually simply just released captured crusaders, giving them the choice between formally signing a promise not to fight or be enslaved. Sometimes, when release was not an option, Muslims would enslave captured crusaders, but never outright execute them.

    Also during the Crusaders, Muslims didn’t attack Christian citizens. For the most part, Christian pilgrims were left alone, or ordered to leave. But they were almost never killed. The Crusaders were often said to of “Waded through rivers of the blood of women and children, all the way to Jerusalem”.

    Some bring up the arguement that the Muslim conscept of “Jihad” being very violent. Well, according to my mothers old debate handbook (1971 relic of a handbook), Jihad translates into “struggle”. There is no evidence of it being used as a term for “Holy War” or used to rally the masses until after 1948.

    From the fall of Roman Civilization until the Age of Imperialism, almost a thousand years, Islaam prospered as a Religion of peace. An untold amount of exploration, progress, and trade grew in cities like Bagdad, Cairo (I question this, but the handbook says so) and Cordoba. Arab Muslims were able to make scientific and mathmatical advancements that rivaled the greeks. In fact, in case some of you didn’t know, the numerical system we use now was created by the Arabs.

    So the real question is, do the terrorists who claim to die for Islaam even read their own book?



  • You see Yanny, this is the question i ask myself about Christians who kill/have killed - have they read their own book and applied its principals?
    I have a couple of close friends who are Islamic. One of them even asks me to pray for him. I have learned a lot about the religion.
    Apparently Islamic law dictates that Muslims have a more fraternal/paternal relationship with Jews and Christians - they are supposed to regard us as their younger brothers and sisters and protect us, yada yada yada. Also their law spells out specific rules of engagement - no women, children or other non-combatants. Not at work or places consdiered to be “sanctities” either.
    Personally i have mountains of respect for the Muslims i know personally. One is the brightest cardiologist i know (one of the best in the city, if not the country when it comes to invasive cardiology), as well he is quite compassionate with regards to his patients. The same with a resident i work with in the ER. Very kind, excellent teacher, and VERY VERY bright!!
    The others i know i have great relationships with - better than with many Christians. Different people are different. Many Christians are jerks, many agnostics are nice.
    Terrorists are evil.



  • Still, the islamic world is’nt in a very good shape. But if we look all their history you are right, our dark religious era was far worst than theirs. In the middles age the arab world was highy advance and civilized (but not us).

    Arab Muslims were able to make scientific and mathmatical advancements that rivaled the greeks.

    I’m not sure they were not better than the greek. The greek love mathematic, but they did not brings lots of new concept outside somes in geometry (but not the theorem of Pythagoras btw it’s babylonian). Pretty much all the discoveries in mathematic were made in the middle east until the 17th century, exept some greeks, indians and egyptians.

    many agnostics are nice

    Do not forget evil atheist.



  • I think that it’s unfortunate that (becuase of 9/11) many people automatically associate Islaam with terrorism.

    However, I do think Islaam poses a problem for our society today (and more in the future). I think that the main reason that people outside the religion are so angry towards the Islaamic faith is becuase the leaders of that religion do not condemn terrorism and acts of violence with the magnitude and ferocity that other religions do. It’s simply an “oh well, shit happens” type of response, and that’s why people are quick to label Islaam as a dangerous religion.



  • A few points, Yanny.

    One, Muhammad was a military leader. A warrior who led men to kill other men in order to capture cities, get loot, etc. (Different than Jesus, Buddah, Confucius)

    Two, the Koran does say that a Muslim who dies fighting infidels goes to a HEaven where like 19 virgins are waiting for him.

    Three, Yanny, I think you are thinking about Saladin, who was by far the most civil commander on either side. When he massacred, he only killed foreign Christians, not the native ones.



  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    However, I do think Islaam poses a problem for our society today (and more in the future). I think that the main reason that people outside the religion are so angry towards the Islaamic faith is becuase the leaders of that religion do not condemn terrorism and acts of violence with the magnitude and ferocity that other religions do. It’s simply an “oh well, sh*t happens” type of response, and that’s why people are quick to label Islaam as a dangerous religion.

    Well, didn’t we show them how to behave with this “shit happens”-attitude?
    And, even more important: Which leader showed this kind of “shit happens” response? Not Indonesia, not Egypt, not Saudi-Arabia, not Pakistan… who did ?



  • @yourbuttocks:

    One, Muhammad was a military leader. A warrior who led men to kill other men in order to capture cities, get loot, etc. (Different than Jesus, Buddah, Confucius)

    He was military as well, but more important was his spiritual leadership.
    And i am not sure that he went to conquer to “get loot”. The conquest of Mecca was to conquer the holy Kaaba. WHic later conquests did he lead, and which ones where doen in his name (which is a difference).

    Two, the Koran does say that a Muslim who dies fighting infidels goes to a HEaven where like 19 virgins are waiting for him.

    Which part of the Quran says that? Does it say anything more about the fighting, the cause of the fighting needed to go to heaven? I am sure it does (AFAIR), but that is usually “forgotten” to mention.



  • @Yanny:

    . An untold amount of exploration, progress, and trade grew in cities like Bagdad, Cairo (I question this, but the handbook says so) and Cordoba.

    So the real question is, do the terrorists who claim to die for Islaam even read their own book?

    For the first Cairo was an important city, AFAIR the first muslim university was built there.

    Second: Do many people who claim to be christian know their book? Do they follow it?
    I guess the “terrorists” on their side are not worse than many (often well-respected) people on the western side. They are just fed up, angry, hateful, and misinterprete the book to their cause, to justify their violence.



  • Well, Christian terrorists killed many more than Muslim terrorists. Millions died during the witch hunts. Hundreds of thousands of innocents died during the Crusades to Christians, who showed almost no mercy. On the other hand, barely a single Christian innocent was killed by a Muslim. The violence we’re seeing is relatively tame (700 Israelis dead, 3000 Americans).



  • Not that anyone cares, but,IMHO, its a small group of Islamic extremists that, like I’ve mentioned before, are perverting their religion, much like groups of Christians did during the Crusades, to suit whatever goals they might have.
    Was that a run on sentence?
    To condemn a religion based on the actions of a few yahoos, is a little ignorant. If thats the right word.



  • Exactly Ghoul, thats what I’m trying to say here. Islaam is probably, according to their book, the least violent of the Religions of the book.



  • Islaam is probably, according to their book, the least violent of the Religions of the book.

    Don’t all religious books claim to be? :-?



  • And, even more important: Which leader showed this kind of “sh*t happens” response? Not Indonesia, not Egypt, not Saudi-Arabia, not Pakistan… who did ?

    President Clinton.



  • “Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given, who believe not in Allah nor in the Last Day, who forbid not what Allah and His apostle have forbidden, and follow not the true faith, until they pay the tribute of hand, and are humbled.” -(Sura 9:29)

    “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends. They are friends to one another. Whoever of you befriends them is one of them. Allah does not guide the people who do evil.” -(Sura 5:51)

    “There is to be no compulsion in religion. Rectitude has been clearly distinguished from error. So whoever disbelieves in idols and believes in Allah has taken hold of the firmest handle. It cannot split. allah is All-hearing and All-knowing.” -(Sura 2:256)

    “And for their taking usury which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense. We have prepared for the unbelievers among them a painful punishment.” -(Sura 4:160-61)

    “The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ Those are the words of their mouths, conforming to the words of the unbelievers before them. Allah attack them! How perverse they are! They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, and so too the Messiah son of Mary, though they were commanded to serve but one God. There is no God but He. Allah is exalted above that which they deify beside him.” -(Sura 9:30-31)

    I’ll post some more quotes for you to analyze Yanny, but this one is kind of violent, wouldnt you say?



  • I’ll post some more quotes for you to analyze Yanny, but this one is kind of violent, wouldnt you say?

    I think it’s very interesting… There is lots of violence and absurdities in Judaism and Christianism too, but people make interpretration to solve the problem when they want their religion to be as they like, even if some statement are very clear (note that they do not take “love all your neibourg” like it was a metaphor).

    I’m not defending that Sura 9:29, i’m just observing that people seem to be far more objective when looking at other’s religion, it just make me think of that caricature of a french artist; a group of christians, with Jesus on the cross behind them, laughing at a pagan venerating a status.



  • sorry, when did Christ, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Titus, Timothy, Philemon or James tell Christians to kill other people? Does it say anywhere that we’re not supposed to do good things for others? About the most violent it gets is the part where we are not supposed to allow Christians who are actively sinning to be amoung us, but i don’t recall the part where they are to be put to the sword or anything . . . .



  • First CC, did Islam said to kill ? No (well maybe, but not as i know). I’m just saying that the quote EmuGod made could be interpret by anybody, just like each time i quote the bible you make some interpretation. Maybe Jesus did not said to kill, but you must forget “god” have killed lots of people, any fanatic can do the same and jusfitied his action with “god’s” action ! So Islam is violent ? Not more than christianism or judaism, it’s just in a dark time. I, personnaly, have less disrespect for Islam because it make science advance at least some time in history…



  • Maybe Jesus did not said to kill, but you must forget “god” have killed lots of people, any fanatic can do the same and jusfitied his action with “god’s” action !

    Not neccessarily. That is merely a story in the bible, it’s not neccessarily the literary interpretation of God actually killing people. How can we possibly know that God flooded the world and killed everybody? We can’t. Just as you can’t believe the story of Adam and Eve in it’s literary sense.

    It’s simply an “eye of the beholder” situation. Although, I do think EmuGod makes a strong point by providing us with actual quotations. It’s disturbing to think that any religion would actual encourage violence among the people of the world.

    I think you can definetely make a stronger argument (by way of evidence) that Islam is a much more violent religion than the other big three.



  • @FinsterniS:

    First CC, did Islam said to kill ?

    read my first quote on the subject.



  • I think you can definetely make a stronger argument (by way of evidence) that Islam is a much more violent religion than the other big three.

    Islamic violence is nothing compare to our inquisition, to our crusade, to hitler and to our medieval age, you can obviously say that’s because they are not following their religion, but it’s the same with islam. You cannot take only the present, to say Islam, as a whole was much more violent in history. Aslo Jesus “said” he was here to bring the sword, he “said” he was here to bring division, that is not violent i assume ? Words for words it’s not worst than the quote EmuGod bring down.

    And we don’t have to go really far to see christians fanatic, promoting violence and intolerance.



  • @FinsterniS:

    Islamic violence is nothing compare to our inquisition, to our crusade, to hitler and to our medieval age, you can obviously say that’s because they are not following their religion, but it’s the same with islam. You cannot take only the present, to say Islam, as a whole was much more violent in history. Aslo Jesus “said” he was here to bring the sword, he “said” he was here to bring division, that is not violent i assume ? Words for words it’s not worst than the quote EmuGod bring down.

    And we don’t have to go really far to see christians fanatic, promoting violence and intolerance.

    Here we go again.
    Jesus did bring the sword and division. Not by telling his followers to kill (quite the opposite - he told Peter “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”), but rather by bringing an unpopular message to people. Many of my ancestors were locked up and persecuted by the sword - for refusing to fight and kill.
    You are straining at gnats to swallow camels FS.
    And this is completely unrelated to my initial post on this subject. Where are you going with this anyway?



  • Jesus did bring the sword and division. Not by telling his followers to kill (quite the opposite - he told Peter “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”), but rather by bringing an unpopular message to people.

    I did’nt ask for an interpretation, i’m just saying jesus words and “god”'s actions can be intepreted in various way by various people. I perfectly know (and i often said it) that the main Christian message was not violent, even if i think it’s pure fantasy…

    And this is completely unrelated to my initial post on this subject.

    The is just related to the relation Islam-Violence. The quote EmuGod give us are not more violent than Christianism and that we should stop saying they are “violent”.

    Where are you going with this anyway?

    I believe violence is not inherent to Islam, at least not more than Christianism or Judaism.



  • I believe violence is not inherent to Islam, at least not more than Christianism or Judaism

    Who here is saying otherwise? :-?



  • yeah, TG. I was wondering the same thing. I figure it may be a linguo-cultural thing for FS to argue against people who are supporting “his”/Yanny’s point . . . .



  • @EmuGod:

    “Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given, who believe not in Allah nor in the Last Day, who forbid not what Allah and His apostle have forbidden, and follow not the true faith, until they pay the tribute of hand, and are humbled.” -(Sura 9:29)

    Notice: fight against those who do not possess the Scriptures

    “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends. They are friends to one another. Whoever of you befriends them is one of them. Allah does not guide the people who do evil.” -(Sura 5:51)

    Read as well Sura 22:17, Sura 6:83-92, Sura 7, Sura 5:48
    Jews and Christians possess the Scripture, and Sura 5:51 does not say anything about fighting or violence. I don’t have to fight everyone who is not my friend!

    “There is to be no compulsion in religion. Rectitude has been clearly distinguished from error. So whoever disbelieves in idols and believes in Allah has taken hold of the firmest handle. It cannot split. allah is All-hearing and All-knowing.” -(Sura 2:256)

    Hmmm, either i don’t understand it, or there is no violence in here as well.

    “And for their taking usury which was prohibited for them, and because of their consuming people’s wealth under false pretense. We have prepared for the unbelievers among them a painful punishment.” -(Sura 4:160-61)

    This sound awfully like ripped out of context… Plus: Christians and Jews are no unbelievers

    “The Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’ Those are the words of their mouths, conforming to the words of the unbelievers before them. Allah attack them! How perverse they are! They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords besides Allah, and so too the Messiah son of Mary, though they were commanded to serve but one God. There is no God but He. Allah is exalted above that which they deify beside him.” -(Sura 9:30-31)

    See: Allah attack them!
    This is pretty much like any judeo-christian violence in the sense of “god will do justice!”. And: Jews and Christians are compared to teh “unbelievers before them”: this i interprete that they are no unbelievers.

    BTW:
    Does the Quran has this nice mention of taking cities with gods help, then killing all males, looting and enslaving all women and children? That is violence, and it is in the OT….


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