What to do for J1 when UK puts much pressure on you?



  • I’ve posted something similar to this @ GTO, but I havn’t really found an answer, so I ask you the same question:

    4 situations: These are some of the worst starting positions that J1 can be in.

    1:

    6 Russians @ Bury
    UK bomber @ Nov
    UK destroyer and carrier killes Japan tranny
    UK uses one tranny load each, to take New Guinea and Borneo
    UK sub survives, Japan sub dead.
    UK puts fighter with Pearl fleet.

    2:

    Same as 1 except only destroyer kills tranny and the UK fighter is in borneo waters with carrier, instead of being @ Pearl.

    3:

    Similar to 1 & 2, except UK builds an IC @ India.

    4:

    Similar to others, except Egypt fighter survives and joins the UK carrier.

    What does does Japan do on J1 if in these situations? Build and moves?

    My quick answer:
    I like the idea of usually going with 3 trannies on J1, but I dont see how it can do that and fight all the necessary battles without leaving its trannies in harms way. So the best that I can think is to either go with 2 IC’s or go with 1 IC, a fighter, and save 5. Then do all the normal battles.

    Your solution?


  • Moderator

    I will usually bite the bullet and buy some naval power (something other than trns) with Japan, esp if I see an IC, meaning they are likely going to go KFJ or intend a prolonged attack on Japan.  So here you just need to make sure Japan stays alive and they need a navy to do that.

    I’ll buy a DD if the UK sub is at sol b/c I likely won’t attack the sub on J1 since it is not a huge threat in the grand scheme of things.

    Also the UK trn at Ngu is low priority to me.

    I’ll buy an AC if I need extra defense or ftr landing spots given the number of attacks I do.

    My top priorities are to:
    1 - Pearl
    2 - China
    3 - Sz 59
    4 - any other?

    I go Pearl Heavy, dd, ac, 2-3 ftrs, bb (maybe trn for fodder), maybe bom (if not needed elsewhere).  Hits are taken on bb, then 1 ftr (if brought three).  Lose trn if UK ftr on AC.

    You need to clear with 1 dd, 1 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 bb

    China - 6-7 inf, 1-2 ftrs.
    With 7 inf, you can probably go 1 ftr if you need the second elsewhere.

    Sz 59 - AC, BB, 1-2 ftrs (depending on if you got a hit on UK1)

    If you keep your trn it needs to go to Sz 61 to unload in Man and the AC buy is nice since you can have 2 trns, 1 ac, 2 ftrs for defense.

    Ultimately you can clear out the major threats and while UK may be able to move an inf to Fic you can severly pressure Sin and reclaim Fic with a BB-shots.

    You can also leave Man empty, Non-Com your trn to maybe Sz 59 instead and gear up to take both Bor and Fic back on J2.

    I avoid a J IC in this case b/c you likely won’t need an 11 capicity for a while, esp if US follows with a Pac buy and it is a KJF.  You don’t want to HAVE TO defend it.  It just locks you into some moves that hurt your J1 attack scenerios.  You need maximum flexibility.  As I said I’ll probably get a DD or AC and follow-up with ftrs on later turns.  You’ll probably only need 3 trns total in the short term.  So you buy 1 trn in J1 (2 if you go DD), and another trn on J2 with air/inf.



  • @DarthMaximus:

    I avoid a J IC in this case b/c you likely won’t need an 11 capicity for a while, esp if US follows with a Pac buy and it is a KJF.  You don’t want to HAVE TO defend it.  It just locks you into some moves that hurt your J1 attack scenerios.  You need maximum flexibility.  As I said I’ll probably get a DD or AC and follow-up with ftrs on later turns.  You’ll probably only need 3 trns total in the short term.  So you buy 1 trn in J1 (2 if you go DD), and another trn on J2 with air/inf.

    As I understand it, you would forgo taking back borneo on J1?

    To me it looks like having trannies just limits your flexibility when Japan is in a bad situation on J1. Imo, the best way to counter USA for awhile is to have your fleet and fighters in position to attack it if it moves too early. But if your fleet is protecting your trannies and taking pot shots at the mainland, how can your fleet be in position?

    Why go with an AC when you could get an IC for that price and guarantee a presence on the mainland? If Russia comes in strong then you will be hurting for icps for awhile, especially if you dont get Borneo back right away.

    But idk for sure, that’s the problem. I used to think 2 ICs is the best counter to a kjf or even a partial one, but then you need extra infantry on French, which increases the chances of China going bad. I’m starting to lean towards 1IC, 1 fighter, and save 5 for J2. But I have been giving more thought to a naval purchase, but thats a hard bullet for me to swallow. I’m having trouble justifying if. Especially another AC. 2 should be plenty. Air is more the way to go to hit USA with some subs when the time is right.



  • @bb82:

    I’ve posted something similar to this @ GTO, but I havn’t really found an answer, so I ask you the same question:

    4 situations: These are some of the worst starting positions that J1 can be in.

    1:

    6 Russians @ Bury
    UK bomber @ Nov
    UK destroyer and carrier killes Japan tranny
    UK uses one tranny load each, to take New Guinea and Borneo
    UK sub survives, Japan sub dead.
    UK puts fighter with Pearl fleet.

    2:

    Same as 1 except only destroyer kills tranny and the UK fighter is in borneo waters with carrier, instead of being @ Pearl.

    3:

    Similar to 1 & 2, except UK builds an IC @ India.

    4:

    Similar to others, except Egypt fighter survives and joins the UK carrier.

    What does does Japan do on J1 if in these situations? Build and moves?

    My quick answer:
    I like the idea of usually going with 3 trannies on J1, but I dont see how it can do that and fight all the necessary battles without leaving its trannies in harms way. So the best that I can think is to either go with 2 IC’s or go with 1 IC, a fighter, and save 5. Then do all the normal battles.

    Your solution?

    1.  The bury stack has to die as well as china.
    2.  You can kill the Carrier and Destroyer with 2 Battleships move the Battleship from East Indies and the Battleship from Japan.  The same if the Carrier and fighter and destroyer in in Borneo waters.
    3.  For whatever the reason in revised what ever the unit is that comes to kill the transport in Kwang.  sea zone is it dies a long with the transport for whatever reason.
    4.  The Borneo “surprise” and New G attack are 50/50 odds.  Chances are one of those attacks will fail.  In which case on your next round you can en devour to take one back.
    5.  Without the sub its kinda hard to do Pearl Harbor light but not Impossible.  Take your Destroyer, Bomber, and 1 Fighter over.  When the UK puts its Fighter on the US carrier in SZ 52 you can take 1 other fighter from the other carrier in SZ 37 over to fight there as well just move up the SZ 50 or to SZ 45.  You then can also take the other fighter from sz 37 to clear the sz 47 transport.
    6.  Also with your buy you can just place the 3 transport you bought in SZ 61 without any fear of them being bombed by the novo bomber.

    I hope that helps!


  • Moderator

    @bb82:

    As I understand it, you would forgo taking back borneo on J1?

    Correct.  Unless you have the resources, ie your trn in Sz 59 killed the DD AND AC (or there are no UK units in Sz 59), or you feel it is safe to transport 2 units there.  I would put that somewhere in the 4th position of importance, behind Pearl, China, and clearing Sz 59.

    @bb82:

    To me it looks like having trannies just limits your flexibility when Japan is in a bad situation on J1. Imo, the best way to counter USA for awhile is to have your fleet and fighters in position to attack it if it moves too early. But if your fleet is protecting your trannies and taking pot shots at the mainland, how can your fleet be in position?

    Your fleet at Pearl should be large enough to deter a US counter and after that you can station 1 AC in Sz 60 and the other can be used to help take back Bor/Ngu or take Aus later.
    You should still have at least 2 BB’s, 2 ACs, 4-6 ftrs after J1 plently to protect several trn landing spots and still threaten the US.  I mean if they buy heavy navy on US 1 then Japan can counter with a couple of subs on J2.

    IMO, the problem with the IC buy is you can’t get units that can attack until J3, and could hurt if you do infact have to buy a little more navy.

    Ideally if you can go 3 trns on J1, that’d be great, but it is not terrible to only have to buy 2 add add some extra fleet protection.  With trns you can attack several coastal ter if you have to.  You’ll need trns anyway, and absolute worst case they make good naval fodder.

    @bb82:

    Why go with an AC when you could get an IC for that price and guarantee a presence on the mainland? If Russia comes in strong then you will be hurting for icps for awhile, especially if you dont get Borneo back right away.

    B/c if it is a KJF - UK IC Ind + US fleet on US 1 - you are going to be hard pressed to maintain naval dominance for very long.  An IC may guarantee an Asia presence but if you end up losing EI and Bor to the US and have your fleet chased to Sz 61 you are in even bigger trouble.

    Russia can’t come in strong b/c you should have 4-6 inf left over in China (threaten Fic and Man) and you can then use at least 1 BB in Man or Fic, the other I think can reach Bor and you can use the J1 trns you bought to attack Man/Bury/Bor as well.  Plus it is easier for your ftrs/boms to reach.

    @bb82:

    But idk for sure, that’s the problem. I used to think 2 ICs is the best counter to a kjf or even a partial one, but then you need extra infantry on French, which increases the chances of China going bad. I’m starting to lean towards 1IC, 1 fighter, and save 5 for J2. But I have been giving more thought to a naval purchase, but thats a hard bullet for me to swallow. I’m having trouble justifying if. Especially another AC. 2 should be plenty. Air is more the way to go to hit USA with some subs when the time is right.

    I like to avoid the AC buy as well, but sometimes it is necessary, ie UK bom/ftr/sub in range of Sz 60 or 61, plus the US bomber and ftr on Hi.

    My view is I’d rather spend a little extra on Navy early to make sure I secure the Pac (you can always sail the extra AC to the Med or use it to harass Ala or even the South Atlantic later) then to buy and IC and then realise it is impossible to defend it and keep a massive US fleet at bay.

    I only buy ICs when I know I need to increase my production cap.


  • '16 '15 '10

    I’m not sure I’d spend any money on subs or ACs until the USA commits to building Pacific fleet.  Fighters are more flexible.


  • Moderator

    The AC buy is specifically designed to help defend against an aggressive (and successful) UK 1 assualt.

    For Example,
    UK sub at Sol
    UK ftr in Bury (with 6 Rus inf)
    UK bom in Yak
    UK DD and AC in Sz 59

    With this opening you can’t afford to wait to see what the US does and holding back J naval units to help defend Sz 60 is waste b/c you need them to attack, particularly the BB where it can soak up a free hit.  Thus it is necessary to buy navy for protection, particularly if you want to buy at least 1 trn to keep up the pressure in Asia, and still get maximum use out of your navy already on the board for your J1 attacks.

    You also can’t assume you’ll win every battle and the UK is not only set up to hit Sz 60 and 61 but also Pearl on UK2.  If you want a fleet in Sz 60 after J1 you HAVE TO BUY a DD b/c of the UK sub at Sol (it can submerge if you attack and miss).  If you flee to Sz 61 a DD might not be enough to protect 1-2 trns when UK can send 1 ftr and 1 bom after it.  I’ll take that shot as the UK.

    I’m not a huge fan of Pearl Lite and think ignoring it is inviting trouble, so I go heavy in my attacks but compensate with an extra navy buy.


  • '16 '15 '10

    Yeah I certainly see the logic.  I also prefer to buy transports J1 so this is a perennial dilemna, though the transports are safe in the Manchuria SZ most games.

    I guess it can’t hurt to get another AC–it just won’t be of much use if the USA abandons the Pacific  (which I probably would if you hit Pearl as you describe).  Forcing Japan to spend the 16 ipcs on the carrier seems like an accomplishment in itself.

    Japan may be better off with a 2 factory or 1 fact 1 fig 1 arm buy—with either of those you are putting a lot more units on the ground J2.  Granted, buying factories J1 is sub-optimal from an economic efficiency standpoint but the justification is that these factories help secure the mainland without any big risks…and of course you won’t need to buy any factories later.

    Of course, a 3rd AC will be hella useful if USA really does come for you, so I’ll definitely keep this strat in mind the next time I think USA is coming.


  • Moderator

    My problem with a Factory in response to an aggressive UK is:
    1 - You have to defend it.
    2 - You don’t know the results of your combat yet.

    Even if you go Pearl Heavy it can still go bad, now maybe US counters and drops a fleet.  And if you have an IC to place you’d probably have to put it Kwa (not a huge fan) b/c Russia has stacked Bury and UK is stacking India.

    IMO, it just limits your responses not only on J1 but J2 as well.

    Now, I agree an AC might be overkill but it can serve a future purpose.  If the US does abandon the Pac you can sail one or two of your ACs to Sz 34 and try to get them into the Med, or you can sail them around South America after you take Nz and threaten the Allied Atlantic shipping.  You can even park two at HI or Ala sz and see how the US reacts to that.

    I don’t have a problem with Japan buying air on J1 either, but I just like to get at least 1 trn in the water which usually requires protection if UK went extremely aggressive.

    If I had my choice though I like to buy 3 trns on J1.



  • Well, I made my choice.

    AC + tranny when things look very rough on J1.



  • Well if he attack with both trannies and puts an IC in india why not take the IC.
    He got 1 inf there as he moved 2 out maby 2 if he moved the persia 1 over.
    In that case china wont be going anywhere but the factory will be put to good use by japan next turn.



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Well if he attack with both trannies and puts an IC in india why not take the IC.
    He got 1 inf there as he moved 2 out maby 2 if he moved the persia 1 over.
    In that case china wont be going anywhere but the factory will be put to good use by japan next turn.

    Imo, putting an IC on India is a bad move for UK. But yes, if there is one, I will usually go all out for it.



  • @bb82:

    1:

    6 Russians @ Bury
    UK bomber @ Nov
    UK destroyer and carrier killes Japan tranny
    UK uses one tranny load each, to take New Guinea and Borneo
    UK sub survives, Japan sub dead.
    UK puts fighter with Pearl fleet.

    Maybe if SFE and Yakut are both empty, use an amphibious tank to take both (you can do this right?).  If there’s one infantry in Yakut and everything’s empty behind you can try this too.  But maybe it’s more useful for the sea battles.

    Since GB is committing so many resources to the Pacific, Germany might be able to take the Atlantic.  It’s interesting that GB sent the Carrier to help knock out the Transport.  I prefer to send mine to Madagascar.

    The Axis generally fights like a sword and shield, with Japan usually being the sword, and Germany the shield.  In this case it’s reversed, so Germany needs to get aggressive.  Some of the pressure’s been taken off him.  However it’s been placed on Japan.  To fight defensively Japan needs to go for naval superiority units.  Kill the enemy ships! There are targets galore!

    HOW COME THE MESSAGE BOX FREAKS OUT WHEN I TRY TO MAKE THIS POST LONGER!!!  :x :x :x


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