Need help with allies :evil: (I'm not a noob)


  • Customizer

    I’m new to the forums but not to the game.  After looking online at some websites like this one, I have found many people talking about “bidding” for the axis, which I remember from the classic version.  But I am confused, because in revised it seems that the bid should go to the allies player, as they are the ones in deep.  I have yet to lose a game playing as the axis, and always lose as the allies (excluding luck based wins) to a player of the same skill.  The game is basically over on the 3rd or 4th turn.
    Here is where I am coming from:
    Turn 1: Germany take egypt with 2 units left, plus 2 more in libya, squares away with russia but leaving its front line in just one huge stack to deter attack.  4 fighters in WE, 2 fighters 1 bomber in libya, baltic fleet moves one space.  Builds 8 inf 4 arty, or 8 inf 2 arty one medit transport.
    Turn 2: If england and the US land in africa turn 1, the entire air force kills them with 2-3ftr, 1 bom left over.  If UK lets baltic fleet live, usually not, but if they do, the baltic fleet helps out kill all allied ships.  If UK and US set up for shuck shuck into scandinavia, this buys Germany extra turns and gives it complete control of africa yay.  2nd turn build is usually 7-9 tanks.
    Turn 3: Everything you can spare musters in Ukraine, this stack is huge.  Probably have used a few arty and inf here and there with ftrs to recapture belo and karelia.  Now you ignore karelia but recapture belo.  Your africa core has taken everything but that annoying south african sitting in rhodesia, and should be walking into persia.  If allies landed in africa, you killed their navy but are left with 4 enemy inf, 2 arty, 2 tanks, and you are running away from them while claiming land.  3rd turn build is usually 4 ftrs, 1 inf/arty.
    Turn 4: Russia has a massive stack of everything they can spare sitting in the Caucus and maybe an allied fighter there too.  You hit it with your stack, your battleship bombard if you still have it, 6-7 ftrs plus bomber, and you win handly with about 7 tanks left over.  Russia only have 6 or so units left in Moscow.  Japan is definately past india and singkiang by now.  Opponent concedes.  If opponent does not concede, sacrifice you entire airforce to take out his entire combined navy for the second time next turn, while building a nice 15 stack of inf and arty in europe just to prove he can’t do shit.

    And here it goes from the Pacific Side of things:
    Turn 1: Japan can either build 2-3 more transports or 1 transport and a factory, plus w/e or save it.  Allies tend to have 3 good strats:

    First involves running away from the japanese front to consolidate at choke points, ie, singkiang and persia.  Russia brings back the top of 10 inf certainly helps there, and japan doesn’t gain much from 1 money territories.  Generally under this strat allies don’t build factories, and usually consolidates full UK navy with 2 inf from australia in bottom sea zone 30.  Japan counters this buy building factory on mainland to get the boot.  Invades china with 1-2 ftrs and 6-7 inf (1 maybe left to go into india), taking it with 3-5 inf left usually.  Battleship and carrier plus 4 ftrs (move carolina carrier to sea zone next to btl to allow you to bring 3rd ftr), and hits pearl harbor with bomber, sub, destroyer and battleship.  Usually have either battleship or 1 ftr left from UK navy btl, and bb and dest and bomber left from pearl.  Build factory where you it, transport some troops.
    Turn 2: You use one tank to start taking russian land while the rest of your group starts to consolidate in China.  Your bb and transports might take india now, or if you already have it attack persia with just one inf to get bombardment.  Mainland fact builds arty or tanks.
    Turn 3: all your planes should be on mainland, singkiang has maybe 12 inf.  I might wait one more turn depending on rest of the board and if you are committing any troops to persia.  Mainland fact builds tanks. 
    Turn 4: your tanks and air sweep away sinkiang, you should also have persia now with good use of your 3 undesturbed transports and bb bombard.  Russia shits herself.  Germany should have destroyed one or two allied navies by now and is not feeling too threated, even if they lost africa.  Allies will have troops either pushing into persia or consolidating in karelia.  Russia is likely to have westruss, belo and maybe ukraine, but she is running out of forces because of germanies counter attacks.  Allies rush to defend moscow but soon japan starts to top 50 ipcs while germany is definately not below 34 and could well have more than 40 if they held well.  Because they have had to buy up to 3 new navies, the allies are only bringing in maybe 6 troops a turn, while japan should be bringing much more than that.  Allies can’t counter attack with 3 seperate forces (and few aircraft), they can only defend, axis get huge economy going, win.

    Second strat involves a slow try at pushing japan off mainland.  UK builds india fact, US builds singkiang.  UK navy again consolidates.  Russia moves troops into stack of 6 in bury, 2 next to it, moves 4 inf into sing maybe with some tanks, keeps planes within range of japan.  Japan uses same strategy to kill UK navy, again tih bb or ftr left over, and same strategy for killing pearl, with bb, dest and bomber left.  Hits China with everything else, again the same 3-5 inf left over, lands planes and drops off troops in kwangtung, evacuates manchuria and french indo china.  If you go with factory you put it in kwang, otherwise you get your 2 extra transports.
    Turn 2: Russia swats you out of china, UK attacks but fails to take kwangtung.  You don’t have much left in kwang, if you made a factory you have reinforce it, if not you can use your battleship to bombard and move down to french indo or up to manchuria.  You reinforce with 8 new troops plus 4 ftrs (good reason to stay in kwang is that you can land ftrs there).  Keep producing, any above the curve use to buy a fighter.  Send extra trns to pick up troop of philipines and east indies.  US doesn’t do much, builds 2 tanks, moves some planes in.
    Turn 3: Russia and UK might attack you, but they have no more steam left and no new reinforcements.  They could sit their ground instead, or even being moving backward in the hopes they have delayed you long enough to be able to defend their factories.  But they have spent too much money pushing back japan so the delay doesn’t net them anything since it takes them longer to hurt germany anyway.  Russia should be starting to hurt a little.  You sit your ground or push out depending.
    Turn 4: You expand outward.  Germany should on the steps of the caucus and might have won that already since the allies couldn’t help and russia had to use some of its own to help the btl against japan.  By turn 5 the game is yours.

    Third: a much quicker push, haphazard and luck based.  Russia does same setup, keeping planes in range, definately has tanks close.  Uk attacks french indo with 3 inf and 1 ftr, should win with 0-1 inf and ftr left.  Uk dest kills you transport, Uk sub sinks your sub, 2 transports and carrier might group up off coast of french or go with destroyer or my favorite is transport goes 36, carrier goes 48 and other transport goes 46 creating a wall that your bb can’t get through to hit dest.  UK and US can build factories, or 2 bombers each.
    Turn 2: Russia hits you hard, you lose china.  UK may hit you bomber, fighter and 1-2 inf, it will lose but retreat with bomber.  You build / land more troops, with 4 ftrs too.  If US built 2 bombers on west coast it may go for longer range aircraft and heavy bombers, then fly 3 bombers into your fleet and win, you could now be fleetless or almost.  If US went for factory instead they will be landing their bomber and 2 fighters on your side, moving 2 inf up. 
    Turn 3: Russia hits again, loses.  UK may hit your with 1-3 bombers now, you could lose it.  If you don’t then US will deal the knockout blow.  You are off the mainland and possibly don’t have much of a navy (although they don’t really either).  You can build up your navy again, and your airforce, and make another go at it.  But either way, due to the overwelming allocation of resources to the far east, germany is knocking on moscow’s door and they aren’t knocking back.
    Turn 4-5: Germany takes moscow and caucus, allies begin to strat bomb germany.
    Turn 6-7: Germany liberates japanese territory with the help of japan’s new forces.  Whatever happens after turn 4 is variable.  This is the best I’ve done as the allies.  I’ve won with this strat against lots of people, but whenever I play against myself my axis kicks my allies ass.

    I’ve tried lots of variations.  I’ve tried dropping a russian and british ftr in china before japan’s first turn.  I’ve tried building up a navy for the first 2 turns then jumping into either western europe or africa or finland.  No matter what I try it seems to be on the lower side of the scale of probabilities for winning.  Oh, and I forgot to mention that none of my examples use bids, and germany doesn’t use rockets because that just makes it even more rediculusly OP to be axis and I can’t allow myself that advantage.

    thx for reading this long post, hope you have some genuinely good input for me,
    veqryn



  • Welcome Veqryn!

    That is a lot to digest. Instead of giving counters for each scenario, here is my general strategies for playing the allies.

    Russia:
       -Make sure that the territories you trade in Europe are German, not yours to begin with. You cannot afford these trades for long, so make them count.
       -Consolidate troops in the east: Fortify Yakut, Sinking, and India/Persia. I keep most of the troops in Kazakh and Novosibirsk until I know which route Japan is 
           taking to Moscow.
       -Retreat when necessary: retreating is better than losing your stacks of infantry. Setup counter-attacks whenever possible.

    UK:
       -Usually an IC in India is a bad idea, because Japan can take it if they want on J 3-4.
       -Contesting Africa: There are two ways I approach this: either with an IC in SA or without. If without an IC, then make sure you organize both US and UK fleets to 
           meet at sz 12 on the same turn. It will be much harder for German air/sea to take out a combined fleet.
       -Setup shuck from sz 4: Russia will most likely need help on the German front. Try to send troops to either Karelia or Archangel each turn to ease pressure on Russia.
           Your ships will be protected from German air in WE as long as the allies control Karelia and Archangel.

    US:
       -Commit to either Japan or Germany: splitting up resources to go after both can be disastrous. Either kick Germany out of Africa or take islands from Japan. It takes too   
           many resources to do both effectively.
       -Get in the action as soon as possible: Even if this means taking losses that you would not normally approve of, it is important to put the axis on the defensive early.   
           Remember that you can afford losses that Germany and Japan cannot.

    There is my 2 cents. I hope it helps.



  • As syntaxerror said, lots to digest, but I’m left wondering what Allied opening strategies you’re seeing.  For example, you mentioned in passing that Germany has 6 fighters to work with on G1.  Around here the most common Russian opening seems to be a Ukraine/West Russia attack, leaving you with only 5.  (I favor the Ukr/Wru move myself, though some don’t like it.)  I’m also wondering what the UK/US are doing with their shipping if you’ve been able to take it out with your Luftwaffe.

    I’d be up for an unofficial, just-for-fun game to try things out if you like.  Do you use TripleA?


  • Customizer

    the strategy i most often see is russia hitting west russia with tons, and reinforcing the caucus.  If you attack west russia and ukraine I am willing to bet you lose a lot of stuff on pretty dicey outcomes, but i can see it being a good strategy too.  I’ll give it a try.
    If the uk, russia, and usa combine their shipping into the sea zone off algeria (and land guys in africa while they are at it) the total comes out to 4 transports, 1 sub, 1 dest, 1 battle ship.  An attack with 6 fighters and 1 bomber leaves you with 2 fighters 1 bomber and no allied ships left.  An attack with 5 fighters 1 bomber should be 0-1 ftrs 1 bomber left.  An attack with baltic fleet and 5 fts 1 bomber should leave you with no more baltic fleet and your air force intact or 1 ftr lost.
    If uk and usa wait til turn 2 to land somewhere, the pressure on russia is nearly unstoppable and germany definately gets to secure all of africa and possibly up to or including persia.  Not to mention a free turn to use their airforce to hit russia with.
    If you do not push japan off the mainland, it does not matter if they lose 1 or 2 islands especially since it will take until turn 2 to lose 1 island (and only if allies are really lucky) and until turn 3 to lose 2 (again, allies have to be increadibly lucky to get 2 by then, usually 0 to 1).  Japan only has to focus on expanding to india and china to offset these losses.  Any addition pacific fleet building by the USA means less atlantic fleet building, which in turn means no serious pressure on germany til at least turn 4, which is far too late in the game to make a difference.

    I don’t have internet except at school for the moment, but once i have it or this weekend I will be online to do some tripleA.  Do you guys use the unstable version or the stable version? (i have only stable 1.0.0.3 right now)

    thx guys for actually reading and responding,
    I would really love some really specific turn 1 and turn 2 russia uk usa help.



  • You’re right that the USA can’t really get much momentum in Europe until about round 4.  On the other hand, Japan can’t really harm Russia until then either.  Before that it’s just grabbing empty 1 IPC territories and/or a couple of stray islands.

    I definitely wouldn’t park an Allied fleet in SZ 12 on round 1 if the Luftwaffe was all in position to hit it.  Round 2 would be better, and you can use carriers built on round 1 to get your defense where it needs to be.  UK can take Norway on round 1, enough to annoy Germany and possibly reduce Russia’s workload by trading Karelia on round 2.

    If the Allies land in Algeria round 2, that doesn’t give Germany a free pass in Africa, especially with no bid.  Chances are G2 is just retaking Egypt.  G3 you might get to take your one tank and blitz a couple territories, which can be taken right back from SZ 23.  Woo hoo.

    One thing that I think is important for Russia in the first couple of rounds is getting enough counterattack firepower.  If Germany has to build up its stack for a round or two before pushing it forward, you can buy enough time for your allies to catch up to you.  I assume your Russian opponents are buying straight infantry or something close, which may be part of their problem.

    Re the Ukraine attack: The chance of failure is real, but the odds are significantly in your favor.  Russia can’t afford to cower in a corner, it needs to take a couple of (well-planned) aggressive attacks.  It does have the drawback that it exposes 2-3 of your tanks to die in the counterattack, but on the other hand, (i) you take out valuable German units, (ii) you create a protective buffer around Caucasus so you aren’t forced to shift all your forces south to defend it, (iii) you increase your income.

    Here’s an idea for an R1 much like what I usually do:
    –-Purchase 3 inf 3 tanks.  This helps replace the tanks you’ll lose in Ukraine, and creates offensive threats to make Germany think twice about stacking too high in the border territories.  It also helps prevent a German stack in Karelia on G1, one of my favorite German openings when I get the chance.
    —Attack Ukraine with everything available (if you feel like playing it safe) or everything available minus one tank (if you feel a little more like rolling the dice).  If you attack with everything you have a 96% chance to win.  If you take out one tank it drops to 87%.  (Don’t know the percentages for taking it over with ground troops off the top of my head.)
    —Attack West Russia with everything available that isn’t going to Ukraine.  You can leave a guy in Karelia too if you like, though it’s really not necessary.
    —Don’t leave more than 6 inf on the Japanese front.  The guys in Kazakh go to Caucasus, the guys in Evenki and Novosibirsk go to Moscow.  You need those guys against Germany ASAP, and don’t need them against Japan for a few more rounds.
    —Coupla options with the Far East guys.  You can stack all 6 in Buryatia, which (especially if you take out the Japanese transport in SZ 59 on UK1) might be challenging for Japan to take back without abandoning some of their other plans (Pearl, China).  If, in addition, you land the fighters in Kazakh then you might be threatening Man with enough for the Japs to leave it empty and you can walk in and pick up a free $3 next turn.  On the other hand the Japs might concentrate all their firepower on taking out your stack and leaving Siberia completely empty.  A safer bet is to retreat the 6 guys to Yak.
    —Sub to SZ 2, of course.

    For UK 1:
    —It’s often not actually worth your while to take out the Baltic fleet on UK 1 unless Germany is threatening to do something harmful with them.  You can afford to just bottle them up and clean them out later.
    —If it looks like Germany is putting up a fight in the Atlantic, a good buy is 1 tran 1 CV 1 inf.
    —Retake Egypt if possible.  You can get there with 3 inf 1 ftr 1 bmr, so if German has fewer than 4 ground troops there the odds are in your favor to retake.
    —If SZ 12 is too hot to land there on round 1, take Norway and get the cash flowing in your direction sooner rather than later.  You can go to SZ 12 on round 2, or may be able to leave that entirely to the Americans, depending on what Germany does.

    After that it depends on how things have gone so far.  I’m not sure where your huge German stack on the front line is going, but in my experience you often end up with competing stacks in East Europe and West Russia staring each other down for a couple rounds before either is big enough to advance.  This is enough to get UK/USA into the game.

    I can’t speak for anyone else here, and actually I think only a minority on this site use TripleA anyway, but I have version 1.0.0.3.


  • Customizer

    I have been turn 1 russia 1 tank, 1 arty, 5 inf.  I’ll try 3 + 3 instead for a while.  (you put the inf in caucus, 2 tanks in moscow right?)

    Why are you building a Carrier with England, i thought that was america’s job?  (especially since america will get to put 2 ftrs on it when they build it, while england’s fighters should be used up killing stuff, either baltic or germany norway/karelia)

    If the german baltic fleet moves to SZ6, you have to attack it with your UK 2 ftrs 1 bomber or else they threaten a combined attack of navy + air force on the allied fleet.  If germany keeps it in SZ5 you can ignore them for a turn or more.  If you do not take them out, then you can not take Norway turn 1 uk, and if they are sz6 you also can not take karelia turn 1 uk.  Do you disagree? Why?

    I have been using the moscow ftr to land in china, and attacking french indochina with 3 inf and 1 ftr, then landing ftr in china also.  The carrier, destroyer and transport hit the SZ59 transport and kill it, the sub in SZ40 hit the jap sub, and the transport moves up one to threaten borneo for a turn 2 strike.  I also tend to move up to 3 tanks and 4 inf into sinkiang.  This allows me to take manchuria and china with russia turn 2, and half the time the brits get french, the other half they leave it unoccupied.  This splits up the japanese airforce, usually meaning they leave the trsport in 46 alone, attack pearl with the bare minimum, and take china with only 1 inf left.  They then lose a couple ftrs to a russian attack on kwangtung turn 3.  After that I begin withdrawing from asia back towards persia, sinkiang and yakut.
    If, instead of doing this you use the trsport with 2 indian inf plus ftr to attack and retake egypt, you will slow the african campaign down enough to delay a landing in algeria until turn 2.  I can see this being beneficial as the addition of 1-2 transports, a carrier and fighters will limit the german ability to destroy the fleet (they can still attack, take out all trsnports, then retreat).  Unfortunately, you basically give asia to japan and will have a big jap stack and 5 ftrs plus 1 bomber on moscow’s door turn 4, not to mention an unstoppable ipc generation in japan.  If germany feels they can not stop your fleet, they will use their airforce against russia instead, which could end up hurting you more.  I actually enjoy throwing my navy at germany in order to kill 5-6 ftrs turn 1 (turn 2 germany).

    lastly, if people aren’t using TripleA, what are they using instead?

    thx again for comments,
    Veqryn



  • @Veqryn:

    I have been turn 1 russia 1 tank, 1 arty, 5 inf.  I’ll try 3 + 3 instead for a while.  (you put the inf in caucus, 2 tanks in moscow right?)

    1+1+5 is not at all a bad build.  I prefer to get 3 offensively oriented units though.  For the longest time I got 4 inf 3 art, which I still think may be the best long-term buy, but in the short term the 3 tanks are a big help, especially if you do the Ukraine attack and lose some tanks in the counterattack.

    Why are you building a Carrier with England, i thought that was america’s job?  (especially since america will get to put 2 ftrs on it when they build it, while england’s fighters should be used up killing stuff, either baltic or germany norway/karelia)

    If by “use up” you mean get them killed, I don’t think UK needs to use up its fighters against the Germans.  But, I do agree that UK can often get away without a carrier, and I usually try to if possible.  It’s more of a fallback to be on the safe side if your navy is getting in trouble.  It sounded like the Allied navies in your games needed some more longevity, which was why I recommended it.

    If the german baltic fleet moves to SZ6, you have to attack it with your UK 2 ftrs 1 bomber or else they threaten a combined attack of navy + air force on the allied fleet.  If germany keeps it in SZ5 you can ignore them for a turn or more.  If you do not take them out, then you can not take Norway turn 1 uk, and if they are sz6 you also can not take karelia turn 1 uk.  Do you disagree? Why?

    If the Baltic fleet moves to SZ 6 you can hit it not only with your air force, but also with your tran and BB from SZ 2.  With the BB to soak up a free hit and the transport to take another if necessary, you won’t even lose a plane.  This is an example of where you might want to build a carrier, though, since otherwise your BB could go down in the German counter.  The other option is that you could build fleet in SZ 2 for a turn, in which case they’re with reach of the German boats but out of reach of the planes.

    I have been using the moscow ftr to land in china, and attacking french indochina with 3 inf and 1 ftr, then landing ftr in china also.  The carrier, destroyer and transport hit the SZ59 transport and kill it, the sub in SZ40 hit the jap sub, and the transport moves up one to threaten borneo for a turn 2 strike.  I also tend to move up to 3 tanks and 4 inf into sinkiang.  This allows me to take manchuria and china with russia turn 2, and half the time the brits get french, the other half they leave it unoccupied.  This splits up the japanese airforce, usually meaning they leave the trsport in 46 alone, attack pearl with the bare minimum, and take china with only 1 inf left.  They then lose a couple ftrs to a russian attack on kwangtung turn 3.  After that I begin withdrawing from asia back towards persia, sinkiang and yakut.
    If, instead of doing this you use the trsport with 2 indian inf plus ftr to attack and retake egypt, you will slow the african campaign down enough to delay a landing in algeria until turn 2.  I can see this being beneficial as the addition of 1-2 transports, a carrier and fighters will limit the german ability to destroy the fleet (they can still attack, take out all trsnports, then retreat).  Unfortunately, you basically give asia to japan and will have a big jap stack and 5 ftrs plus 1 bomber on moscow’s door turn 4, not to mention an unstoppable ipc generation in japan.  If germany feels they can not stop your fleet, they will use their airforce against russia instead, which could end up hurting you more.  I actually enjoy throwing my navy at germany in order to kill 5-6 ftrs turn 1 (turn 2 germany).

    Well, it sounds like the reason Germany is so unstoppable in your games is that the Allies are throwing way too much stuff at Japan!  It is possible to do KJF if you go all out with all three Allies (I’m not a KJF expert by any means), but if you throw tons of gear Japan’s way just to slow it down then you’re getting the worst of both worlds.  Japan will still do just fine and Germany will absolutely demolish you.  Better to throw everything at Germany for the first few rounds, before Japan gets dangerous.

    lastly, if people aren’t using TripleA, what are they using instead?

    Games here are played by forum rather than by email, so the alternative is to type your moves directly into the forum post.  The mapping utility of choice is ABattlemap, which is graphically much uglier than TripleA but has more flexibility strictly as a mapping utility (TripleA is really a game engine).  Dice are authenticated via the “in-house dicey”, a forum script which converts certain syntax strings to dice rolls.  For example, if you type ;aaa 1@1 5@3; but replace the colons with semicolons, it knows to roll 1 die at 1 and 5 dice at 3, and displays the answer as

    Rolls: 1@1 5@3; Total Hits: 41@1: (1)5@3: (1, 2, 3, 5, 4)



  • The other pretty common thing to do is to counter attack in AE with 1 Inf from Jordan and 2 Inf loaded on the India transport with it’s fighter as well.  With only 3 units left in AE it’s pretty easy to retake.  Even if Germany does do what is called the BIG 9 (all the bid in Africa) sometimes that even gets taken back.  Another option UK has on 1st Turn is take Borneo and New Guinea.  Both attacks are 50/50.  Just a couple of things I have seen.  I hope these you out.



  • I would happily play allies against axis without bid, I’m pretty much done with AAR, as AA50 is much better, but if someone thinks axis have advantage in AAR then I will prove you otherwise.

    TripleA, LL, no tech, real time.

    Just enter the lobby and say you want to play axis without bid, you will get seriously pwned  :evil:  :lol: :evil: 😄


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