• Moderator

    This is too Easy

    Luftwaffe Wins Battle over Britain,  Germany wins War.

    If the UK has No Air Force, They will not Be able to Defend themselves Adaquetly (sp) enough.

    The Royal Navy in the Atlantic would all but not exhist by the time Dec. 7th 1941 comes around.

    So with No UK Airforce, Germany won’t need a Huge Navy to conduct Landings in the UK, it’s only 30 miles Away.

    Germany Takes UK by the End of 40’  So now They Can Completly Concentrate on Russia, Without UK around, Japan and Germany can Fight Russia at same time, And America Hasn’t even entered the War yet.

  • 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    If Italy would have been up to the task (meaning, performing blitzkrieg and had updated equipment and blitzkrieg trained forces) as the Germans and won the previously battle against the balkan states, greeks and win in africa as well.
    wow!
    Germany would have been able to start their invasion as planned on russia and would be at home on christmas as promised as they used to say a lot.

    “forward comrads we have to go back”


  • Also voted battle of britain.
    Without their airforce the germans would easy gain naval supremacy, japan has showed that ships vs planes is not good for the ships.

    Cover of darkness only works in naval aviation where both sides want to hide, without an airforce to contest them the germans could just use their airforce at night. The reason airforces where not used at night was because finding a landing deck in pich black night isnt really easy unless you turn on the lights, and then the enemy planes can also easy find said deck to park their bombs there.

    Also with the distance involved you dont have night cover for your fleet for more then a few hours, scapa flow -> south UK is more then 1 day of travel for a ship.

    Without the UK airforce germany would have invaded the UK and would have had a decent chance of actualy capturing it. Also london is quite close to the south and verry few countries have been fighting a war after their capital has been captured.


  • I think that if Germany sunk at least 700,000 tons of shipping per month, Britain would have surrendered.

    I do not think Air Superiority would have won Germany such a victory; consider how long Germany lasted against massive aerial bombardment. Furthermore, Hitler would not have invaded England even if they had achieved air superiority as he was preoccupied with notions of Lebensraum.

    I do not consider the sea war “The Battle of Britain” but rather “The Battle of the Atlantic” and thus do not believe winning the air war “Battle of Britain” would have greatly impacted the war.


  • Yeah, Battle of Britain pre-dates all of those other options.  IF Germany had won the air war, Britain would have been a sitting duck as most of its military equipment was left at Dunkirk retreating from France; there was talk in England of arming local citizens with hunting rifles in event of an invasion.  If Britain had been knocked out of the war early on there would have been no El Almein, D-Day, hell most of that stuff wouldn’t have happened/been necessary.  Not sure if USA would have had the political will/means necessary to liberate Britain by the end of 1940/beginning of 1941 either.


  • Hell, though, I HAVE lost a game to Allied players where I pulled off a successful Sealion as Germany round 2…  So I guess America probably could liberate Britain and turn it around…


  • @SgtBlitz:

    Hell, though, I HAVE lost a game to Allied players where I pulled off a successful Sealion as Germany round 2…  So I guess America probably could liberate Britain and turn it around…

    I got UK capital on turn two with Germans due to oversight on the Allies. They retook it and actually I was pretty much screwed because I lost so much in taking it….but luckily I was playing AARe and took the requisite additional VCs with Japan and sub stalled the US from taking Hawaii back, so I won. Close though.


  • @SgtBlitz:

    Yeah, Battle of Britain pre-dates all of those other options.  IF Germany had won the air war, Britain would have been a sitting duck as most of its military equipment was left at Dunkirk retreating from France; there was talk in England of arming local citizens with hunting rifles in event of an invasion.  If Britain had been knocked out of the war early on there would have been no El Almein, D-Day, hell most of that stuff wouldn’t have happened/been necessary.  Not sure if USA would have had the political will/means necessary to liberate Britain by the end of 1940/beginning of 1941 either.
    [/quote

    You forget about the Royal Navy and the fact that Germany had no navy up to the task of protecting an invasion fleet. A large part of the German Navy was lost or damaged in taking Norway.


  • You forget about the Royal Navy and the fact that Germany had no navy up to the task of protecting an invasion fleet. A large part of the German Navy was lost or damaged in taking Norway

    Germany had bombers and definitely paratroopers which could have filled some of the holes missing from a naval invasion, especially if they were only facing civilians and a just broken army recovering from Dunkirk which had lost most of its equipment.  They would have needed an invasion fleet eventually to finish the job, but more importantly Germany missed out on quite a few opportunities to expand its navy for free.  Germany really screwed up finishing France off; they virtually lost the entire French fleet at port in Algeria, a British raid destroyed it at port (Mers-el-Kebir) before the Axis could get anything out of it during the surrender negotiations.  The remainder of the French fleet at Toulon wasn’t touchable until 1942 when Germany invaded Vichy France, and then it got scuttled.  Spain was also a blunder in that Germany and Italy couldn’t get Franco to invade Gibraltar, if he had been persuaded to do so, Italy might have been able to get its fleet out of the Med.  The Italian fleet was so bogged down fighting the Brits in the Med it couldn’t be available to help conduct Sealion; if things had been coordinated correctly, BOTH the Italian and the majority of the French fleets could have been used IN ADDITION with whatever the Germans had left to invade Britain.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The British fleet didn’t bother to show up when they needed to get the BEF and french out at Dunkirk.

    Why is their any indication that if the Germans invaded from the same place, that the British would have done anything to stop it?

    The Germans with 4:1 air superiority could not come close to sinking fishing boats and tugboats ferrying wounded men. Once the Germans cross to Dover in real ships the British would have no answer and would chew up their air forces in short order and her pilots would be landing in the sea, rather than parachuting on a farm to be reused latter.


  • Japan would have lost to the Russians just like they did in 39, but even wose they would not be able to capture any of the raw materials they needed to not be a third world country in 3 years.

    Italy would have mismanaged her conquests and arab subjects similiar to the turks so although it may have threaghted baku aswell as allied supplies to Russia is would have not been a big a deal as it would have been under competent leadership that the Italians did not have.

    Japan winning a major victory at Midway would have severly hurt American efforts, although it might have down well for american propaganda as they could easly paint it as a defensive battle and could rally more support for the cause. Also since it is a naval battle there would have been less causalties so it would have less of a political factor.

    The Germans would have messed up sealion even if they had air supeirority, there are not so many beaches in engalnd and the engalnd would have a sizible force fighting for there homeland and being backed by the US that could bottleneck the Germans on the beaches. Plus they still have naval suppeiority.

    Losing D-day would have been devistating, espeacialy if it was a long battle and their were tons of British and American causaulties. I get the sence some Americans were already tired of the war and losing so many men would have just incouraged the anti-war camp. It would have been painted as just another european conflict like WW1.
    Or anti war groups might say Japan was the right war and Germany was just a distraction, (to draw a paralel to Afgahnistan and Iraq today, )

  • '16 '15 '10

    The war was already decided before D-Day, so I wouldn’t include that one.

    The Battle of Britian was obviously decisive.  Actually I think Japan attacking USSR would have been a big deal too, specifically if it had kept the USA out of the war a little longer.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    right. anything from summer 1942 and latter is not really a ‘what if’, unless your just thinking about making the war longer. The result is the same.

  • Moderator

    @Imperious:

    right. anything from summer 1942 and latter is not really a ‘what if’, unless your just thinking about making the war longer. The result is the same.

    But at this stage Hitler should have realized it wAS A LONG SHOT TO WIN THE WAR.  Hitler should have sent all her resources on Super Subs. :roll: That way they could take full advantage of their Wolfpack NA.  :evil: :roll:

    Sorry, Hijacked

  • 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @Imperious:

    The British fleet didn’t bother to show up when they needed to get the BEF and french out at Dunkirk.

    Why is their any indication that if the Germans invaded from the same place, that the British would have done anything to stop it?

    The Germans with 4:1 air superiority could not come close to sinking fishing boats and tugboats ferrying wounded men. Once the Germans cross to Dover in real ships the British would have no answer and would chew up their air forces in short order and her pilots would be landing in the sea, rather than parachuting on a farm to be reused latter.

    IL that is actually not quite true…the Britian had allready start working on some fortifications, flametowerbunker,mines, deathtraps and so on…The UK was very aware that a possible Invasion could occur…nevertheless
    Hitler decided not to Invade for some reason.
    It is mentioned that he felt sympathy for England and on the other hand the space in the East was his ultimate and primary goal…why he started to get ready for the amphibious assault and suddenly changed his mind is better to understand from his political intrest point of view like other decissions he made during the whole east campagne…I have even the Opinion that to conquer and hold a territory like the UK and going on a warfare w. an even bigger enemy and landmass would not be wisley, it is rather force and resource consuming…and that the war was lost in 1942 ,I don’t share that opinion that much either based on If other choices would have been made it could look like a lot diffrent than the actual outcome…Greek, the Balkan and africa were always a sidekick Theatre to him, this is why the supplys for africa felt so short because it had less priority…

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I meant to stop the invasion in the sea by using their home fleet. If they could not bring it to ferry the BEF and french 20 miles, then how and why does everyone fear the fleet in the channel fighting the Germans.

    I feel that the Luftwaffe would be able to protect the invasion.

    as far as the landing on the beaches at Dover and Ramgate…the fortifications were nothing compared to what the Allies faced at D-Day. right?

  • 2020 '19 '18 '17 '16

    right!!..caught you on the wrong foot…I apologize


  • I am still surprised that Japan attacking Russia got some votes.  You have to realize the Russians would not have to expend that much to repel a Japanese offenseive, the Chinese would recognize this and would be on a full out offensive to recapture lands lost and avenge Nanking.


  • Imo, the initial question is not precise enough, it’s not about Germany winning the air war against UK, it’s about “eliminating”, or at least removing UK as an enemy, it doesn’t matter if sealion are executed or if some German assassins kills Churchill and the other prime minister will make a deal with Germany to be allied with the Germans, or to stay neutral.

    But obviously, if there was any successful sealion operation, ……I would would probably be much better at typing in the German language then in English, even if you can see that English is not my first language…Norwegian or swede or any other nationalities, a German victory against UK would be devastating.

    If Germany wont teh WAR against UK before any war against Russia, the odds of Germany winning is much higher.

    Japan could not win anything from the US which is not giving away for free, but if Japan choose not to engage the US, but Russia instead, it could take 10-30 years to win a lot of square km2, but it could be (possibly) done.


  • Battle of Britain


  • If UK lost the air battle the US would have been forced to come into the war earlier, and we all know what happened when the US got rolling.  The battle of midway and DDay already means the US is in the war so the end is already decided.  Japanese attacking the USSR or any success by the Italians are the most important in my opinion.


  • We also know what happens when America enters wars without being attacked first…they wimp out and go home. Honestly losing the air war would have been devestating to the allies.


  • I still say that Japan attacking Russia would have been bad for the Allies beacause the forces that made up the bulk of the Russian counterattack outside of Moscow came from Siberia.  They came west once Stalin realized that Japan wasn’t going to attack.  The Germans might have been able to take Moscow and more if it weren’t for those troops from Siberia.  Plus Japan had been preparing for an invasion of Russia for years they would have know what they were doing.  They would have at least tied down Russian forces that were desperatly needed at the eastern front.  And even if the British lost the Battle of Britan, Germany didn’t have the resources to invade.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @idk_iam_swiss:

    We also know what happens when America enters wars without being attacked first…they wimp out and go home. Honestly losing the air war would have been devestating to the allies.

    evidence?  if you say vietnam i’m going to give you a long post for a history lesson.


  • This is the short version of the Vietnam war: US won the military victory, but the US did not win a political victory.
    The geo-strategical goals was not achieved.

    War is an expansion of politics, and so the US lost this one.

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