• Here is a Germany specific strategy, 1941, NOs on, Techs off or ignored.

    G1build(31): 1 Carrier(land 2 Fighters on it), 2 Transports, 1 Infantry
    G1attack: Take Baltic States, East Poland, and Ukraine.  Use transports to move an additional Infantry and Artillery to Baltic States and Ukraine.  Make sure that all Tanks are in range of Karelia, and that at least 3 Tanks are in Baltic States or otherwise near water.  Use Subs, Fighters, and Bombers to wipe out all British Naval units save the Destroyer/Transport pair.  Use African units (2 Infantry, 1 Tank) defensively only, to protect Libya and Algeria.
    G2build(45): 1 Transport, 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Cruiser
    G2attack: If you can kill Britain with 3 Infantry/Tanks, a Cruiser, and your Airforce, DO IT.  If Britain to tough, hit Karelia, transporting as many Infantry/Artillery as possible there.  Retain control of the 1st NO as well, using your air force ideally.
    G3build(52): 8 Tanks, 1 Cruiser
    G3attack: If you can kill Britain with 4 Infantry/Tanks, 2 Cruisers, and your Airforce, DO IT.  If Britain to tough, ship the G2 Build from Germany to Karelia.  Retain control of the 1st NO as well, using your air force ideally.
    G4build(52): 2 Tanks(in Karelia), 3 Bombers, 2 Infantry
    G4attack: Retain control of the 1st NO as well, using your air force ideally.  Move the 8 Tanks to Baltic States, and advance your Karelia forces to Belorussia, capturing Archangel as well if possible
    G5build(55): ???, dunno
    G5attack: Forget Britain, you should be able to hit Moscow with your builds from G2, G3, G4, and a good portion of your starting forces

    In short, threaten both Britain and Russia at once with the Baltic Fleet.  The transports can be used to either to attack Britain, or to allow you to shorten the distance Infantry need to travel, allowing you to build Infantry on Turn X, Tanks the on X+1, Bombers on X+2, and have them all reach Moscow on X+3.


  • So I suppose the Russians do nothing and just let you have Karelia?

    By projecting your turn 2 assault on Karelia Russia can be well prepared to liberate it. They can have plenty of infantry staged in Archangel and 6 tanks purchased in round 1 ready to rip out of Russia.

    What happens to the Kriegsmarine when the US shows up with a nice stack of bombers out of England on turn 4 or so?

    You will noticed the more experienced players around here are not real thrilled with the idea of building a German Navy. There is a reason for this. A German navy is very hard to build, maintain and use. It also siphons off troops from use against Russia and until it is quite sizable is restricted to the Baltic. The last means that it can do nothing against combined Allied landings in Africa which can all but knock Italy out of the fight.


  • If you can kill Britain with 3 Infantry/Tanks, a Cruiser, and your Airforce, DO IT.

    Well, only an idiot would leave Britain undefended after Germany buys 2 TPs. Just with starting units, you’d be looking at 2 inf, 1 art, 2 arm, 4 ftr (2 from US), 3 bmr (2 from US), which already has odds to win even if somehow all German aircraft are within range of attack (which they won’t be if you’re hitting sz12 AND sz2 on G1). That’s without a UK build.

    My guess is that the UK will simply build something like 2 inf, 3 bmr on UK1 so your fleet is dead on their next turn, or failing that, on US2.

    And you can forget about running over the Soviets like you describe if your buying that much navy.


  • What happens to the Kriegsmarine when the US shows up with a nice stack of bombers out of England on turn 4 or so?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy_72yGCuwI&feature=related

    And turn 4 is quite optimistic for the Germans. I’d be surprised if they still had a navy on their 3rd turn.


  • @a44bigdog:

    So I suppose the Russians do nothing and just let you have Karelia?

    By projecting your turn 2 assault on Karelia Russia can be well prepared to liberate it. They can have plenty of infantry staged in Archangel and 6 tanks purchased in round 1 ready to rip out of Russia.

    What happens to the Kriegsmarine when the US shows up with a nice stack of bombers out of England on turn 4 or so?

    That’s exactly what I said to him in his Subs are awesome thread bigdog.  When he said he’d buy 6 subs on G1, I told him on R1 I would load up on armor for the counter attack and stock pile UK and US bombers while bomb the crap our of Germany and Italy.


  • @a44bigdog:

    So I suppose the Russians do nothing and just let you have Karelia?

    By projecting your turn 2 assault on Karelia Russia can be well prepared to liberate it. They can have plenty of infantry staged in Archangel and 6 tanks purchased in round 1 ready to rip out of Russia.

    Germany can hit Karelia with about 10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks, minus any units lost taking Baltic States (probably 1 Infantry), plus a Cruiser volley.

    If they reinforce Karelia, Germany would have to fight through 9 Infantry, 1 Artillery, and 3 Tanks, before being counterattacked by 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 4 Tanks.

    If Russia evacuated Karelia before hand and built only tanks, they would be able to counterattack with 13 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.

    Outcome of Situation A: Germany kills Karelian force, survives with 2 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.  Germany survives counterattack with 5-6 Tanks.  Germany loses a net of 43-48 IPCs and 13-14 HP, Russia loses 82 IPCs and 22 HP.
    Outcome of Situation B: Russia counterattacks successfully, but loses all but the newly built 6 Tanks.  Germany loses 73 IPCs and 19 HP, Russia loses 52 IPCs and 16 HP.  However, Germany will likely slaughter the Tank group with 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Cruisers blasts, and some air support.

    In either case, by the end of turn 2, Russia will have about 8 Infantry left that weren’t in or east of Evenki National Okrug, plus possibly that Tank group.

    However, in order to do Situation B, they have at most 6 Infantry to defend Caucasus.  Germany will simply divert their Bomber and a tank or two to capture it as well.

    @a44bigdog:

    What happens to the Kriegsmarine when the US shows up with a nice stack of bombers out of England on turn 4 or so?

    They can switch out an Infantry+Cruiser for a second Carrier at some point, if need be.

    Also, if the USA goes SBR on turn 4, they will be too little too late, while Italy and Japan run rampant.  Japan and Italy are both capable of runaway expansion, Germany is not, so it makes sense for them to play more cautiously, drawing the attention of the Allies via their land/sea threat and buying time for Italy and Japan to expand.  If done right, if the Allies don’t target Germany sufficiently, it can take 1 of the Capitals, if they do target it sufficiently, Italy and Japan will expand too much.


  • This makes no sense, the numbers don’t even add up!
    And even if they did, you must be playing the most rookie allied players I’ve ever seen!


  • @Enigmatic_Decay:

    This makes no sense, the numbers don’t even add up!
    And even if they did, you must be playing the most rookie allied players I’ve ever seen!

    Care to explain?

    Turn 1, Russia loses the 7 Infantry in its frontline territories.  Assuming they anticipate an attack on Karelia, and choose to evacuate it during R1 and build a tank group to recapture it, the number of units available for recapturing it in R2 will be 13 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.  Forces not in range consist of 4 Infantry in the Caucasus, 2 Infantry in Kazakh, 2 Infantry in Novobirsk, and their Siberian forces (9 more Infantry).  If they evacuate like that, they can have at most 6 Infantry in Caucasus, not enough to hold it, and it will be captured G2, especially if Italy whittles them down first.  While they will capture Karelia in R2, they will only have 6 Tanks survive.  During G3, the Tank group will be pulverized, at which point the only remaining Russian forces will be the 9 Siberian Infantry, the 2 Infantry from Novobirsk, and whatever they built R2 (another 6 Tanks?).  Moreover, capturing Karelia will let Caucasus survive intact, meaning that Germany will produce 4 units there, while Italy will land some additional units to reinforce it (especially if they built a transport first turn).


  • You sure do anticipate having a willing victim as an opponent Wodan

    What makes you think Russia is not going to Attack the Germans that are in Ukraine, If for no other reason than to whittle them down?

    Italy possibly could take the Caucasus but to do so they have to fore go getting their second NO and they could have possibly already have lost the first after round 1 anyway. Also I have found that when Italy takes the Caucasus early like that it is extremely hard for them to hold as the other Axis countries generally do not have any units even air units within range to reinforce with. This leads to trading the Caucasus with Russia. That does keep Russia from producing units there but again it keeps Italy from Achieving a much needed NO and also keeps them from making any head way in Africa. This strengthens the UK and weakens Italy.

    Again I really think we should start a forum game next weekend so you can put some of these ideas to the test.


  • Where, might I ask is the reinforcements to take Karelia? If you bought a navy in the first turn you’ll have no reinforcements to hit Karelia with and you don’t seem to anticipate that while you may take out those 7 Russian infantry on RD. 1, they will more than likely cause you a few casualties as well.

    If you think you can transport them, your wrong because if I’m the allies I hit you with a one two assult that wipes out your navy including your transports before you can reinforce or move it

    I like the fact that you’ve been constructing a different German strategy than we’re used to, however I think your assuming too little in terms of an allied response to your G1 moves.


  • @Enigmatic_Decay:

    Where, might I ask is the reinforcements to take Karelia? If you bought a navy in the first turn you’ll have no reinforcements to hit Karelia with and you don’t seem to anticipate that while you may take out those 7 Russian infantry on RD. 1, they will more than likely cause you a few casualties as well.

    Germany can hit Karelia with about 10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks, minus any units lost taking Baltic States (probably 1 Infantry), plus a Cruiser volley.

    If they reinforce Karelia, Germany would have to fight through 9 Infantry, 1 Artillery, and 3 Tanks, before being counterattacked by 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 4 Tanks.

    If Russia evacuated Karelia before hand and built only tanks, they would be able to counterattack with 13 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.

    Outcome of Situation A: Germany kills Karelian force, survives with 2 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.  Germany survives counterattack with 5-6 Tanks.  Germany loses a net of 43-48 IPCs and 13-14 HP, Russia loses 82 IPCs and 22 HP.
    Outcome of Situation B: Russia counterattacks successfully, but loses all but the newly built 6 Tanks.  Germany loses 73 IPCs and 19 HP, Russia loses 52 IPCs and 16 HP.  However, Germany will likely slaughter the Tank group with 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Cruisers blasts, and some air support.

    @Enigmatic_Decay:

    If you think you can transport them, your wrong because if I’m the allies I hit you with a one two assult that wipes out your navy including your transports before you can reinforce or move it

    With what?  For B1, you have 2 Fighters, a Bomber, and a Destroyer that isn’t in range, as your surviving atlantic forces.  Germany has a Carrier with 2 Fighters and a Cruiser guarding the transports.  Attack and you will simply lose your forces.

    @Enigmatic_Decay:

    I like the fact that you’ve been constructing a different German strategy than we’re used to, however I think your assuming too little in terms of an allied response to your G1 moves.

    I have.  Italy can limit British responses, potentially, while Japan can distract America.


  • The problem about building a carrier in G1 is that its a purely defensive move. It doesnt make any sense to try to protect the single transport. German naval strategy has to be aggressive to keep oposing transports away. Therefore its best to concentrate on some subs to take combat losses and a strong airforce that delivers the main punch. As subs cannot be attacked by air only and aircraft land on mainland territories, they are in no danger from opposing aircraft. Let your opponent build expensive ships!


  • @Count_Zeppelin:

    The problem about building a carrier in G1 is that its a purely defensive move. It doesnt make any sense to try to protect the single transport.

    The Carrier is protecting 3 Transports, all of which can be used either shuttle Infantry/Artillery to Karelia or invade Britain.


  • Wodan, your navy will be annihilated by the end of round 2. End of story. If you disagree, please explain how you plan keep your navy when any UK player worth his salt will buy bombers on UK1 and blow it out of the water before it can do anything.

    As for the Karelia bit, the Soviets simply retreat from there and dead-zone it on their first turn. If you move your big stack of German in, it gets strafed to the ground and the Soviets can relax because you blew your infantry wad, with no reinforcements in sight because you bought all navy G1. If you take Karelia light, you will end up trading it back and forth each turn, making no forward progress since you won’t have the ground units to hold it, because again… :drum-roll:… you bought navy instead of those would-be ground units.

    The end result is that Germany stalls out early, and the Allies have an easy victory in Europe.


  • @Unknown:

    Wodan, your navy will be annihilated by the end of round 2. End of story. If you disagree, please explain how you plan keep your navy when any UK player worth his salt will buy bombers on UK1 and blow it out of the water before it can do anything.

    Even if he does that, Germany still launches its main invasion of Karelia first, then builds 1 Transport, 5 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Carrier, which breaks even with the British air/seaforce.

    Or alternatively, Germany could invade Britain, which would likely succeed unless Britain sacks all their Bombers.

    @Unknown:

    As for the Karelia bit, the Soviets simply retreat from there and dead-zone it on their first turn. If you move your big stack of German in, it gets strafed to the ground and the Soviets can relax because you blew your infantry wad, with no reinforcements in sight because you bought all navy G1.

    Germany will move 10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks into Karelia G2.  If Russia retreats out of it, then hits it with every possible unit they can plus an R1 build of 6 Tanks, those 6 Tanks will be the sole survivors, and be decimated on the followup attack.


  • there is no follow up attack… you bought all navy…


  • Karelia Karelia,  and it s only worth 2.

    Building a German navy is costly, limited in use and has to be kept on strength. But a fun options that keeps your opponents guessing.

    Advantages:

    • Bridge towards Scandinavia and Leningrad

    • Threatens London (a bit)

    • Protects Berlin

    • Keeps options open (Maybe after the victory parade on the red square?)[/[/li]

      Disadvantages

      • Costly (less tanks & men) and hes to be maintained

      • Limited use

      Maybe is this the place to open the discussion on the bosporus optional rule, escort fighers, and on the subs.
      Bosporus rule: why only the bosporus? This is a handicap for te axis. Maybe a house rule: hazardous passage between enemy held straights.

      Subs: next to useless in AA50?  Suggestion: keep the first strike capability even if enemy DD’s are present (other rules the same). But those hits can not be applied against DD’s.

      It would be nice to have the opportunities to wage a battle of the Atlantic/ Pacific) and set up a strategic bombing campaign. With both sides having to commit resources to set up such a strategy or defend against it.

      Greetings
      El Stef


  • @atarihuana:

    there is no follow up attack… you bought all navy…

    ???  Does 6 Infantry and 2 Artillery count as Navy?


  • The largest problem I see with building ACs with germany is subs.

    UK can drop a fleet of up to 7 subs, or replacing 2 subs with a bomber.  Germany starts with no DD, all UK has to do is drop enough subs to sink the fleet and buy bombers, then sink it on UK2 OR force germany to buy all DDs on turn 2.  I would recommend 3-5 subs as UK plus a bomber or two, bye bye german fleet, onward to the med!


  • G1build(31): 1 Carrier(land 2 Fighters on it), 2 Transports, 1 Infantry

    That’s your G1build! Where is the second wave of attack?? What are you going to place in France?? just leave it to the UK?


  • @wodan46:

    Here is a Germany specific strategy, 1941, NOs on, Techs off or ignored.

    G1build(31): 1 Carrier(land 2 Fighters on it), 2 Transports, 1 Infantry
    G1attack: Take Baltic States, East Poland, and Ukraine.  Use transports to move an additional Infantry and Artillery to Baltic States and Ukraine.  Make sure that all Tanks are in range of Karelia, and that at least 3 Tanks are in Baltic States or otherwise near water.  Use Subs, Fighters, and Bombers to wipe out all British Naval units save the Destroyer/Transport pair.  Use African units (2 Infantry, 1 Tank) defensively only, to protect Libya and Algeria.
    G2build(45): 1 Transport, 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Cruiser
    G2attack: If you can kill Britain with 3 Infantry/Tanks, a Cruiser, and your Airforce, DO IT.  If Britain to tough, hit Karelia, transporting as many Infantry/Artillery as possible there.  Retain control of the 1st NO as well, using your air force ideally.
    G3build(52): 8 Tanks, 1 Cruiser
    G3attack: If you can kill Britain with 4 Infantry/Tanks, 2 Cruisers, and your Airforce, DO IT.  If Britain to tough, ship the G2 Build from Germany to Karelia.  Retain control of the 1st NO as well, using your air force ideally.
    G4build(52): 2 Tanks(in Karelia), 3 Bombers, 2 Infantry
    G4attack: Retain control of the 1st NO as well, using your air force ideally.  Move the 8 Tanks to Baltic States, and advance your Karelia forces to Belorussia, capturing Archangel as well if possible
    G5build(55): ???, dunno
    G5attack: Forget Britain, you should be able to hit Moscow with your builds from G2, G3, G4, and a good portion of your starting forces

    In short, threaten both Britain and Russia at once with the Baltic Fleet.  The transports can be used to either to attack Britain, or to allow you to shorten the distance Infantry need to travel, allowing you to build Infantry on Turn X, Tanks the on X+1, Bombers on X+2, and have them all reach Moscow on X+3.

    First of all, the fleet idea doesnt work. Ive tried it. All GB has to do is build 5 subs and 1-2 fighters and blow your fleet out of da water. when your fleet is gone, your russian stratagy falls imediatly. Russia reenforces Karelia and your lack of tanks (because of your 1 turn purchases) becomes a problem. so you are left with a smaller army then russia’s and no fleet. Figure out how dat works.

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