Paratroopers


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Can you use Paratroopers for NCM reinforcement, or do they HAVE to be dropped into combat?



  • Part of the rest of the rule book also know as the FAQ
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20081212

    The answer is no.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Wow.  That’s a silly rule, IMHO.  I mean seriously, you think the Airborne isn’t gunna wanna drop on FRIENDLY landing zones once in a while???



  • Yes, it is a silly rule.

    Historically more serviceman were ferried by air transport into rear areas than were airdropped into a hostile combat zone.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Yea, I know.  The 82nd and 101st were ferried all over Europe by Air Transport, but they were also dropped into combat.  You’d think it would be a given that an air transport could move a unit just as easily in NCM as in CM, maybe easier.

    /shrug.



  • It does seem to be a silly distinction.

    Our house rule is to allow transport of troops on non-bombing runs if you have the Paratroopers tech from friendly area to friendly area within the bombers range.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    The hilarious part is that most house rules for Paratroopers, that I am aware of, before AA50 was released, said that Bombers could transport 1 Infantry in NCM only and only if the Bomber and the Infantry did not engage in combat!

    Now it’s the opposite!  You can only engage in combat!



  • bombers are cheap now.
    Giving NCM capability makes them EVEN MORE powerful (as part of Paratroopers)

    I suspect it is because then the americans could much more easily get units into china/russia/you name it if they could be moved in NCM.



  • Does anyone else besides me find unlocking paratroopers to be underwhelming?

    Paratroopers is probably the worst tech you can unlock next to Improved Factor production or Rockets for USA.

    So yes, I would like to see Paratroopers made MORE powerful.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    After having paratroopers dumped on me about 7 times in a row (might be exaggerating, but not by much!) I have found some unique uses for them.

    1)  Things like Gibraltar, Norway and Finland are no longer lost to Germany.  You can drop a unit on them and land in Germany to get more units after wards.  Can be very annoying to the allies since Gibraltar is a territory England needs for a NO and Finland/Norway are just annoying to go conquer every round.

    2)  You can do an Aerial Sea Lion.  Only will work once though, first time your opponent goes “Oh shi.t, you just dropped 6 infantry, 6 bombers and 6 fighters on England and I only have 4 infantry, 2 armor to defend” and you’ll NEVER get that opportunity again with him! (I speak from experience!)

    3)  Poland not secure?  Paratroopers can be dropped right on Ukraine, East Poland and Baltic States each round for your NO!

    4)  Need reinforcements in distant combats quickly?  6 paratroopers landing with your armor and infantry really can add some uoomph to your attack!

    Now, I’m not saying I dream of getting Paratroopers, just that I seem to get them often and I have found a number of good uses for them!


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Oh, and please don’t diss improved factories!

    Karelia making 4 infantry for Germany is a royal headache!

    Germany putting 12 units on the ground and repairing 20 IPC in damage for 10 IPC is even more annoying!

    So far, there is only one technology that is utterly and completely useless, and it’s the same one that was useless in classic, revised and enhanced: Super Submarines.

    You don’t need it for anything.  Odds are the job could be better performed by a destroyer, cruiser or fighter and those units could do something else on top of what you needed done and quite frankly, submarines in this game are a complete and utter joke!

    It should be replaced with Improved Air Fields reducing fighters to 8 IPC and bombers to 10 IPC or Reinforced Carriers (2 hits to sink) or something else of real quality.



  • 2)  You can do an Aerial Sea Lion.  Only will work once though, first time your opponent goes “Oh shi.t, you just dropped 6 infantry, 6 bombers and 6 fighters on England and I only have 4 infantry, 2 armor to defend” and you’ll NEVER get that opportunity again with him! (I speak from experience!)

    Speaking from experience, someone has done that to me before.  You’re right, you never forget.

    Oh, and please don’t diss improved factories!

    Go back and reread my original post:

    “Paratroopers is probably the worst tech you can unlock next to Improved Factory production or Rockets for USA.”

    I dissed Improved Factories and Rockets for UNITED STATES.  I’ve made it clear in the past of how good Improved Factories can be for Russia or Germany.  You madame, lose.   😉

    So far, there is only one technology that is utterly and completely useless, and it’s the same one that was useless in classic, revised and enhanced: Super Submarines

    Not so!  RADAR is the ALL TIME, MOST USELESS TECH IN THE WORLD.  Consider who’s getting it.  Japan, USA, and UK.  None of them need it.  Okay, UK benefits somewhat.  But consider how often UK gets bombed and why the German wouldn’t just start bombing Russia instead.

    Radar < Cowpies


  • 2007 AAR League

    @TG:

    Oh, and please don’t diss improved factories!

    Go back and reread my original post:

    “Paratroopers is probably the worst tech you can unlock next to Improved Factory production or Rockets for USA.”

    I dissed Improved Factories and Rockets for UNITED STATES.  I’ve made it clear in the past of how good Improved Factories can be for Russia or Germany.  You madame, lose.   😉

    I disagree on all counts.

    US Rockets in Algeria and UK can pay for it’s research rather quickly. You could even put one in Egypt for the inevitable Japanese IC in India.

    If I got Improved Factories, I would let the US take Algeria and Libya and put two 3-unit factories in each. That would be more than enough to keep the Italians out of Africa and then you could send your entire fleet west to engage the Japanese. With the west coast covered by your fleet and the Atlantic inaccessible to the Axis, you could leave the US devoid of units. And if the Italian fleet is bugging Russia then a 1 turn build of 6 SS supported by a few aircraft would solve that problem.

    And with Paratroops, bombers based out of Libya could hit everything from France to Persia including the usually undefended territories like Bulgaria and Balkans. And you wouldn’t even need to sink the Italian fleet.



  • US AA guns with Radar can hit at 2 in England.

    Those things aint nailed to the board ya know.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Thanks A44, my point as well.  You can also move them to Karelia, Caucasus and Russia too.

    Also, Germany getting Radar and/or Improved Factories ends, permanently, the allies SBR campaigns.  Why risk your bomber to score 3 or 4 IPC in damage when you have a 33% chance of getting shot down and the enemy will only pay 1 or 2 IPC to repair?

    I’d say Improved Factories, Mechanized Infantry, Paratroopers are the top three on Chart 1.
    I’d say Heavy Bombers, Long Range Aircraft, Improved Shipyards are the top three on Chart 2.

    The worst on Chart 2, and the absolute worst tech in EVERY incarnation of the game I have ever played, is Super Submarines.
    The worst on Chart 1, and still INCREDIBLY good and useful, is War Bonds



  • If I got Improved Factories, I would let the US take Algeria and Libya and put two 3-unit factories in each. That would be more than enough to keep the Italians out of Africa and then you could send your entire fleet west to engage the Japanese. With the west coast covered by your fleet and the Atlantic inaccessible to the Axis, you could leave the US devoid of units. And if the Italian fleet is bugging Russia then a 1 turn build of 6 SS supported by a few aircraft would solve that problem.

    Let me get this straight.

    You would unlock Improved Factories so you (USA) could take Algeria and Libya, spend 30 IPCs on ICs, wait a turn to place ICs, and hope Italy doesn’t retake both territories before you can place six units?

    (Do you realize what you’re saying?)

    Chances are if the Allies can take and hold Algeria and Libya, you’re already winning the African War.  In which case, this just seems like a “win more” move.

    Sure you could do something constructive like build transports out of Libya and attempt a landing in Europe, but how do you protect said transports now that you’ve sent your entire navy west to engage the Japanese?

    US Rockets in Algeria and UK can pay for it’s research rather quickly. You could even put one in Egypt for the inevitable Japanese IC in India.

    Same principle applies.  Though you get +1 Karma for LOLs. 
    However, I do realize that you could ship Rockets to England, in which case I take back what I said, American rockets are useful.

    And with Paratroops, bombers based out of Libya could hit everything from France to Persia including the usually undefended territories like Bulgaria and Balkans. And you wouldn’t even need to sink the Italian fleet.

    So your strategy hinges on getting infantry to Libya, landing bombers in Libya, picking up said infantry and parachuting them into undefended territories, while landing back in Libya so you could do it again?  And during all of this, you’re relaying on your bombers not to get strafed on the ground as they await your paradrop?

    No thanks.

    –-----

    US AA guns with Radar can hit at 2 in England.

    Read: “But consider how often UK gets bombed and why the German wouldn’t just start bombing Russia instead.”

    –-----

    Thanks A44, my point as well.  You can also move them to Karelia, Caucasus and Russia too.

    Me = Russia.   
    You = United States

    “Gee, thanks for sending that Radar guided AA-gun over, Jennifer.  We can finally shoot down those German bombers.  Too bad you had to cancel out my National Objective just to do it.”

    Also, Germany getting Radar and/or Improved Factories ends, permanently, the allies SBR campaigns.  Why risk your bomber to score 3 or 4 IPC in damage when you have a 33% chance of getting shot down and the enemy will only pay 1 or 2 IPC to repair?

    Now on the flip side, how often does Germany go for Air/Naval Tech to even Radar?  You’re much better off gunning for Improved Factories and hitting something useful like Mechanized infantry along the way.

    Radar, still worthless.

    I’d say Improved Factories, Mechanized Infantry, Paratroopers are the top three on Chart 1.

    For me it’s: War bonds, Mechanized Infantry, Advanced Artillery.  Rockets deserves to be mentioned

    I’d say Heavy Bombers, Long Range Aircraft, Improved Shipyards are the top three on Chart 2.

    Same.  Jet Fighters is also up there.

    The worst on Chart 2, and the absolute worst tech in EVERY incarnation of the game I have ever played, is Super Submarines.
    The worst on Chart 1, and still INCREDIBLY good and useful, is War Bonds

    Chart 2:  Radar
    Chart 1:  Paratroopers


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    If Russia is being nailed for 20 IPC a round, I think losing 5 from the NO is worth having the American radar gun.  Just me though.

    And yes, Jet Fighters is better in this incarnation then previous ones (attack 4 instead of defend 5) so it was close between them and improved shipyards…shipyards only won out because it reduced the cost of BBs and Carriers so much!

    Also, I agree, BMB/Inf in Libya not exactly the way to go.  You have to get the Inf to Libya, you can’t just bring him on the bomber!  However, paratroopers in Germany can be insane.  Just a bomber a round for a couple of rounds and suddenly the allies are defending everything in bloody site!



  • Now Jenn, you know there is that unwritten rule that the Axis can not buy bombers and must buy all tanks instead.

    Honestly I can find a good use for all the techs except super subs.

    Except if we were handing out techs I would give that to Italy with 1 sub to represent the Italian fast attack craft which were some of the best of their type in the war.

    Finding the use for the techs and who to get them by does however require one to discard the baggage of games of A&A past.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I agree, this is a completely new game based on the same “engine” as previous games.  The units look the same, many of them act the same, some of the technologies are familiar, the map is generally the same lay out, but with more zones.  But it’s a completely different game.

    Incarnations of technologies that were great before, suck now.  Incarnations of technologies completely useless before, have a use now.  Then again, super submarines still suck…though, I suppose if Italy spend all their income every round on navy and of that most were submarines, I could see that being a real boon to them and a thorn in the side of the allies…have to try an Uber Italian Fleet strat one day. (So far it’s been limited to 2 transports, 2 cruisers, aircraft carrier, battleship and 2 fighters…which is normally uber enough to keep them alive.)



  • You guys keep talking about shipping  AA guns to allied territories, but doesn’t that change the owner ship and cancel the tech?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    No.  You retain ownership of your AA Gun until it is captured by the enemy.



  • The last thing I want to say.

    If I ever see you two at a board game convention, say Gen Con or Origins, I’d like to have a seat next to you at the Axis and Allies table.  We would play three games, each of us as USA and each of us with a different starting tech.

    Game 1: U-505 with Paratroopers or Improved Factories

    Game 2: Cmdr Jennifer with Radar

    Game 3: Moses with Supersubs

    (To keep some semblance of fairness we’ll say USA starts off with 5 less IPCs or something)

    I’m interested to see what the results would be.  😉


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Paratroopers for America would be wicked.  But not as bad as Paratroopers for Germany.

    Why not just give Germany Paratroopers, Super Subs and Radar instead of America?  At least they’d be able to use each of those techs at the start of the game. 😛



  • If a bomber carries an infantry to a combat, and the bomber is destroyed by AA fire, what happens to the infantry?


  • 2007 AAR League

    @TG:

    Let me get this straight.

    You would unlock Improved Factories so you (USA) could take Algeria and Libya, spend 30 IPCs on ICs, wait a turn to place ICs, and hope Italy doesn’t retake both territories before you can place six units?

    (Do you realize what you’re saying?)

    Yes, I realize exactly what I am saying.

    I would take Algeria and Libya with 1 infantry and then not transport any more units to Africa in hopes that I could build 2 undefended factories right under the nose of Italy because it is so sneaky that it just might work.

    And if I developed rockets, and I had the capacity to transport AA to Algeria I wouldn’t send any other units with them because 1 AA immediately makes north Africa completely secure.

    And if I developed paratroops, I would leave Libya devoid of anything but my bombers to be strafed by the Axis because, when you have that tech, you don’t have to actually supply the bomber with defensive infantry to paradrop(they are automatically generated).

    I was tempted to not even bother responding to this, but I have been bombarded recently by questions regarding whether I was capable of reading the rules or if I have even played the game suggesting that my strategies are outageously foolish and can be proven as such if I would actually bother to learn how to play the game against someone else.

    So when you write paragraphs suggesting that I am too stupid to properly defend IC’s or bombers, then I think you deserve a little return sarcasm.

    Chances are if the Allies can take and hold Algeria and Libya, you’re already winning the African War.  In which case, this just seems like a “win more” move.

    Sure you could do something constructive like build transports out of Libya and attempt a landing in Europe, but how do you protect said transports now that you’ve sent your entire navy west to engage the Japanese?

    Same principle applies.  Though you get +1 Karma for LOLs. 
    However, I do realize that you could ship Rockets to England, in which case I take back what I said, American rockets are useful.

    So your strategy hinges on getting infantry to Libya, landing bombers in Libya, picking up said infantry and parachuting them into undefended territories, while landing back in Libya so you could do it again?  And during all of this, you’re relaying on your bombers not to get strafed on the ground as they await your paradrop?

    No thanks.

    –-----

    Let’s start with Rockets. Assuming I’m smart enough to properly defend Algeria and UK and that it took me roughly 3 researchers to develop it, it would take me 3 turns, on average, to recoup my costs (21$ of damage for 3 turns of attacks. $15 for 3 researchers plus $6 for a new AA=$21). After that it makes money. Less research money and it would only average 2 turns.

    Paratroops and Improved IC’s partially serve the same fuction but in different ways. If the US wants to transport troops through the Med and into Europe they have to maintain 2 fully functional fleets (one to protect the TP’s in sz12 and one to deal with the Italian fleet and protect the Med transports). Paratroops and Improved IC’s eliminate the need for one or both of those fleets and in each case there is a possibility that you can ignore the Italian fleet altogether.

    With Paratroops, you can eliminate the need for a Med fleet because of bombers based in Libya and excess units transported to Africa make it difficult for Italy to get their NO’s. Just as the Italian fleet serves as support for Germany in the way of clearing Ukraine for Germany to move into and immediately land fighters for defense, US paratroops prevent this. And if Germany doesn’t retake Ukraine to eliminate one of Russia’s NO’s, it also makes it hard for Germany to gain one of their NO’s because Ukraine is usually a key territory for them. With Italy making only 9 IPC’s per turn they would have a hard time doing anything but trading Balkans every turn. Sure, an AA prevents this, but it gets costly to protect every possible territory from paratroop landings. For $48 worth of bombers, you would barely get 2 TP and a loaded CV for that price so it’s easily cheaper than putting a navy in the Med and you wouldn’t have to clear out the Italian navy to do it.

    Improved IC’s in Algeria and Libya give you 2 options.

    1. Eliminates the need for the sz12 fleet. You can clear the Med and maintain only the Med fleet. With the remaining money after building at the IC’s, you could build aircraft in the US for support or build navy in sz56 to harass the Japanese.

    or 2) You could just send your entire navy toward Japan and use the IC’s to prevent Italy from gaining their NO’s and have those ground units move toward Persia to close off the Japanese access to Russia via India. One fighter or a couple extra infantry in Algeria would be enough to protect it from Italian landings so you could effectively ignore the Italian fleet. And if the Italians get bold and build more TP’s, A mass SS and/or aircraft build would eliminate that threat once and for all.

    For one tech, you can maintain a fleet of bombers for less than it would cost to have half as many TP’s and their protecting fleet in the Med, and for the the other, $30 completely eliminates the supply chain from the US to North Africa. I just don’t understand how either of those 2 scenarios isn’t cost effective.

    For me it’s: War bonds, Mechanized Infantry, Advanced Artillery.  Rockets deserves to be mentioned

    I don’t understand how you could put War Bonds ahead of Rockets when 2 Rockets(easy to achieve for any country) average twice as much damage to your enemies as War Bonds can earn you every turn. You can’t get War Bonds twice but you can certainly get multiple Rockets. The only way for War bonds to be better than Rockets is if you reinvested that War Bond money into techs and rolled Rockets.

    I believe that you should put the techs in order of usefulness.

    1. Mechanized infantry is useful to every country and challenges Heavy Bombers and LRA for the most powerful tech in the game.

    2)Rockets is likewise useful to every country and in multiple numbers can be very effective.

    1. Increased Factory Production, War Bonds, and Paratroops are tied for third. You can’t put one over the other because while War Bonds is equally useful to every country, IFP and Paratroops are more useful than War Bonds to some countries while being less useful than War Bonds to others.

    Improved Arty isn’t that great. Out of 30 units, [20 inf, 10 Improved art] is equal to [15 inf, 15 art]. While I like artillery, spending $100 to save $5 would take most countries 3 turns and you just can’t be that inflexible with your purchases and be effective in every game.


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