Should Germany take Egypt first turn?



  • I think if Italy sees a 3 bomber buy on UK1, they should just go and be the best little brother they can be and support Germany in Ukraine (in what ever capacity is needed: add units or offshore into caucasus)

    With $36 spend on planes, there won’t be much bad door pressure on Germany.

    Germany can also pull some units from africa on G2 to Bulgaria/ukraine/caucasus.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Okay, but don’t forget, England’s going to see you stacking Libya like no tomorrow and you’ll have to have equipment in Italy or Bulgaria to use to invade.

    England’s not just going to sit there and watch.  They’ll most likely pull out of Egypt and build up bombers to sink the Med fleet.

    well thats also true, but if i saw that id have Italy take out both Egypt and Jordan and if they fail at one of these G2 will finish the job and deny the bombers landing space. IN any event the Italian fleet dies on UK2 or UK3…

    and then there is the new idea about dispersing the fleet which has yet to be looked at. I advise to move the two transports separately from the warships because they are not hit allocations: so its 1 AP, 1 AP, and 1BB, 2CA, 1DD

    Now thats forces 1 bomber  and another bomber to allocate on both transports and 4,4,3 against 4(2),3,3,2…which means i save my fleet and UK loses its bombers, because Japan has fighters at threes hitting bombers that may escape, unless they go to Caucasus.

    You’ll have 4 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter(s) in Jordan instead of Egypt, and you’ll have 4 Bombers prepped and on the tarmac to hit Egypt next round if they don’t get a juicy Med Fleet target.

    Well on I1 we take Jordan and on G2 Egypt falls… bombers have no home. If you retreat to Jordan entirely, then on I1, Italy takes Egypt and the German tanks blitz and Germany now has somewhat less: 3 tanks, 1 inf, 3 fighters, 1 bomber= 23

    Really, you only have that first round to hit Egypt.  You are not getting a second chance at that fighter.

    I agree with this, but i am trading that one fighter for 5 UK ships on alternative G1 air allocations and targets.

    BTW your also correct on your other post, but the battle results in pretty much mutual destruction and id like to see that.

    If i was UK i would wait a turn and get my bombers in Caucasus anyway, which also gets my bombers away from Japanese intentions.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Unfortunately, UK bombers in Caucasus takes away money from Russia so it is to be avoided if at all possible.

    And you have to take into account that if Egypt and Trans-Jordan are taken by the Axis, Allied bombers built in UK on UK2 can’t reach the Italian fleet on UK3 so you would only have the initial UK aircraft and the UK1 builds to contest the Italian fleet. And if the Italian player is smart, their turn 1 build is a fighter and their turn 2 build is a CV making the fleet impervious to all but the most desperate attacks. That’s why the Allies have to play for the UK2 kill or the Italian fleet will get their CV and air cover and survive for 2 more turns, at least. Not the 1 turn like you suggest.

    And you also have to account for an Allied attack on Algeria. If you leave 2 German fighters without fodder sitting in Algeria prepared for a second round attack on Trans-Jordan, I would abandon the UK bomber build and take my remaining UK TP with 1 inf, 1 arm supported by the UK bomber and possibly the Egyptian fighter and attack Algeria.

    That’s a double bonus for the Allies because it not only kills two German fighters but it also possibly takes Algeria and eliminates an Italian NO unless they send units away from Egypt and counterattack Algeria. That right there weakens the German position because you have to allocate German ground units to cover the fighters.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @axis_roll:

    @Cmdr:

    Wish I had known that a bit earlier….coulda saved me some headaches I have now…oh well.

    Old habits are hard to break…

    I’ve read many a player admit to leave unescorted tpts on mistake as well

    I do believe the new naval rules make it a much better game.

    You know what kind of tweaks me about the new sub rules is that an unescorted transport can load units in sub infested waters, move through more sub infested waters, and finally unload their cargo in yet MORE sub infested waters and never be subjected any attacks whatsoever.

    @Cmdr:

    I’ll take you up any time, 505.  Just let me know. 🙂

    Then again, I’m hungry for games because once Feb hits, I’m gunna have to cut WAY back again.

    Done. Pick the year and the side you want to play and start the game thread.

    @a44bigdog:

    U-505 I would welcome the chance to play you but at the moment I have 6 games going on with another one probably about to start. Perhaps soon as some of these games finish up we can play a game. I honestly think you are making too many assumptions of Axis troop dispositions and positions.

    Fair enough.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    IL:

    3 Bombers on UK 1 isn’t an awful idea anyway.  There’s not a lot of pressure of England landing units in Europe, but then again, England’s probably more concerned about stifling Italy early anyway, so landing some troops in Algeria would help with that.

    And if you don’t use the bombers to hit the Italian fleet (which is a thought since you could have ships and other craft lined up to do that later) you can use them early on to end Italy’s purchasing power.    4 Bombers X 3.5 IPC each = 14 IPC dmg.  If one is shot down, then it’s 10-11 IPC damage to the Complex.  (Almost the cost of a bomber.)

    Just thought I’d mention it.  I wouldn’t want someone to read the thread and go “Oh, she totally thinks bombers are only good for sinking the Italian fleet, I’ll really sneak up on her and bomber her complexes.” or something.



  • On UK1 i like buying 1 carrier and 2 bombers, rallying fleet in SZ 8 if it will be safe from enemy air.  This means IF you stay in SZ 14 you will lose your fleet.  Also, if you land 2 fighters in Algeria with no cover I will drop 2 units with my trans, hit you with the Egypt fighter plus the UK bomber to destroy them.

    On UK2 I will usually move the carrier to SZ 12 to cover US landings, then go from there. I may build more planes, if the Egypt fighter is still alive I may drop another carrier, more ships, who knows, but with the carrier in SZ 12 plus the UK bombers that Italian fleet will most likely die on turn 3 or 4, and 2 fighters 3 bombers are much better odds anyway.

    I guess my point is it doesn’t matter what the Axis do, if the Allies want the med and Africa they will have it.  BUT every round Italy distracts the Allies, is a round Germany gets to pound on Russia.

    Also, if playing with NOs, I feel the best Italian buy is 1 fig on turn one, followed by a turn 2 AC witch makes there fleet much harder to kill.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Basically, if the allies REALLY want the Med and Africa nothing the Axis can do will stop them.

    But it’s my experience that the Allies prefer to have Moscow and will divert the required forces and resources to maintaining Moscow even if it costs them the Med or Africa for a couple extra turns.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Unfortunately, UK bombers in Caucasus takes away money from Russia so it is to be avoided if at all possible.

    The Soviets cant survive in 41 w/o help and secondly, thats an optional rule and we are not using them for this example.

    And you have to take into account that if Egypt and Trans-Jordan are taken by the Axis, Allied bombers built in UK on UK2 can’t reach the Italian fleet on UK3 so you would only have the initial UK aircraft and the UK1 builds to contest the Italian fleet. And if the Italian player is smart, their turn 1 build is a fighter and their turn 2 build is a CV making the fleet impervious to all but the most desperate attacks. That’s why the Allies have to play for the UK2 kill or the Italian fleet will get their CV and air cover and survive for 2 more turns, at least. Not the 1 turn like you suggest.

    And that can easily be overcome by buying 2 bombers on UK1 and a factory in India, then on UK2 buy 3 bombers and place them in India, then on UK3 you got 5 bombers and even more fighters and nothing can be done. You see their is a million ways to kill the Italian fleet if its the determination of the British player to do this. Italy can do anything about it.

    Plus UK can bomb Italy and deprive its carrier build…

    problem overcome.

    And you also have to account for an Allied attack on Algeria. If you leave 2 German fighters without fodder sitting in Algeria prepared for a second round attack on Trans-Jordan, I would abandon the UK bomber build and take my remaining UK TP with 1 inf, 1 arm supported by the UK bomber and possibly the Egyptian fighter and attack Algeria.

    ok so i move the tank(s) over and it still can reach Egypt in one turn.

    problem overcome.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I don’t see national objectives as optional.  Without them, you need a bid to be Axis, IMHO.  Maybe even a bid for Russia as well, since you are effectively reducing Russia’s income by 5 IPC a round every round. (Rare is it Arkhangelsk falls before Moscow in my opinion.)

    That said, Soviets can too survive in 1941 without Allied landings on Red Territories.  However, there are times the temporary loss of 5 IPC income for Russia is bearable because the gain of landing units in Russian territories is greater.

    These times include, but are not limited too:

    1)  Valid Landing Zones so you can attack high value targets of opportunity which make the game easier for you.
    2)  Arkhangelsk is falling anyway, and you need British/American troops in Russia NOW.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I don’t see national objectives as optional.  Without them, you need a bid to be Axis, IMHO.  Maybe even a bid for Russia as well, since you are effectively reducing Russia’s income by 5 IPC a round every round. (Rare is it Arkhangelsk falls before Moscow in my opinion.)

    WHAT??? in 1941 the axis need a bid??? huh? 1941 is kinda broken for allies IMO.

    That said, Soviets can too survive in 1941 without Allied landings on Red Territories.  However, there are times the temporary loss of 5 IPC income for Russia is bearable because the gain of landing units in Russian territories is greater.

    These times include, but are not limited too:

    1)  Valid Landing Zones so you can attack high value targets of opportunity which make the game easier for you.
    2)  Arkhangelsk is falling anyway, and you need British/American troops in Russia NOW.

    I don’t see this at all. In 41 the Allies need to land and retake karelia and establish the Soviet player. Under my system German tanks can take advantage of the new maps territories to centralize and strike at north or south in one turn, which weakens the Soviet player, unless the brits can lend a hand.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Russia can liberate Karelia pretty well on their own.

    Without NOs, the allies are down 20-30 IPC a round that’s a huge swing really.

    Also, Germany should be repairing from SBR campaigns every round.  Russia should easily be able to stand on her own if Germany is taking Factory damage.



  • Honestly IL I’ve had people use your tank strat against me and Russia can survive just fine, its the Italian can opener that really scares me with russia, so many things to worry about.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Italy can be a pain in the arse, that’s why I recommend killing the Italian fleet regardless of cost as soon as possible.  Stops a lot of the annoyances the Italians can do.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Honestly IL I’ve had people use your tank strat against me and Russia can survive just fine, its the Italian can opener that really scares me with russia, so many things to worry about.

    you could not have because my 41 strategy map does not even indicate any great emphasis on Africa. My prior posts are merely discussion on how it would be possible to do something and not whether you should at all. I think Italy really needs to also head over to support the Germans, because under my actual idea italy just shadows the German conquests in southern Russia and also is used as this can opener idea.

    Africa in G1 or G2 is a total waste IMO. The only thing they need to do is tie up the British assets as defender, and turn into a elite commando raiding unit where they land troops for a few turns before they get cleaned out like a platter of meatballs.



  • Sorry IL I am another that has seen your German Tank strat run out of gas on the frozen steps as well.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    LOL!

    you used it correctly ( by the book?)  yes?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I think part of the problem is when you originally posted the idea, you were assuming Italy was trading 1 infantry for 3 Shore Bombardments and that’s since been clarified to be illegal in this version.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I think part of the problem is when you originally posted the idea, you were assuming Italy was trading 1 infantry for 3 Shore Bombardments and that’s since been clarified to be illegal in this version.

    no no i was not . I had the option of a G2 attack on Egypt when the odds of greater than 30% could be achieved.

    however i do advise that Italy buys a DD on I1, but if UK does not buy bombers, then Italy should buy another transport on I2

    But im sorry to see the tank push fail, but then again i think the exact moves were not followed, because if they were i feel it gives the Germans the best options.

    Also, consider that i propose 2 forms of play: fast=tanks, or slow= CV and Infantry… so the tank thing is not exactly the same or only option.



  • With 12 IPC bombers a German CV is a waste of 14 IPCs. I have tried it in more than 1 game and it just isn’t worth it. As far as round 1 purchases go I have found 7 infantry and 1 fighter suits my style best.

    Not sure if the tank rushes I have seen were properly executed or not as I would have to look at it again. Its not something  I would do. I feel the Axis is not under the kind of pressure they were under in previous games and should not throw the game away by making early risky attacks.


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Imperious:

    The Soviets cant survive in 41 w/o help and secondly, thats an optional rule and we are not using them for this example.

    I know the Soviets can’t survive without help. If you take away one of their NO’s for a couple critical early turns their situation doesn’t get any better even if the Italian fleet gets sunk.

    And we don’t have to include NO’s, but without them the Axis is severly hampered. The Axis relies heavily on NO’s early in the game. Much more so than the Allies do. Just a rough calculation says that the Axis earns about 25-40 IPC’s from NO’s and the Allies about 10-20 in the first few rounds. If you didn’t play with NO’s in 41’, then the Axis would probably need a bid like the Commander suggested.

    And that can easily be overcome by buying 2 bombers on UK1 and a factory in India, then on UK2 buy 3 bombers and place them in India, then on UK3 you got 5 bombers and even more fighters and nothing can be done. You see their is a million ways to kill the Italian fleet if its the determination of the British player to do this. Italy can do anything about it.

    If Japan sees that the UK built an IC in India and 2 bombers in the UK on UK1, they would be able to set themselves up on J2 for a massive strike on India on J3. 3 inf, 1 art, 3 bmb isn’t a very strong defensive position and I would definitely send fighters against the AA with the prospect of taking out 3 bombers.

    I’m not going to try to calculate how much Japanese hardware can hit India on J3 because it would vary based on casualties taken in the first 2 turns, but it likely includes an equal or better amount of ground units; probably 1 BB, 1 CA; and a lot of fighters.

    Plus UK can bomb Italy and deprive its carrier build…

    problem overcome.

    If I see that the UK builds bombers anyway even after I attack Egypt on G1, then I know that the UK will be unable to mount an attack on the fleet until UK3 at the earliest, so I can just save my first turn income which would amout to a total of at least 21 IPC’s which is enough to build the CV even with maximum damage to the IC.

    If the UK doesn’t SBR Italy, I can just build the CV and fighter at the same time on I2.

    And if the UK does SBR Italy on UK2, not only are they exposing their bombers to AA fire risking a weaker attack on the fleet, but I can still build the CV and put 1 fighter on it and then Germany can provide the second fighter before the UK moves in for it’s attack.

    ok so i move the tank(s) over and it still can reach Egypt in one turn.

    problem overcome.

    Yes, but those armored unit in Algeria can’t hit Trans-Jordan which is where the UK units would be if Germany doesn’t attack Egypt on G1.

    And there is one more thing you have to take into consideration. If you use the bomber against the UK BB in sz2, it can’t reach Egypt or Trans-Jordan for an attack on G2. And if you use the bomber against the sz12 units then you have to send both sz7 SS with the Norway fighter against the sz2 BB to make sure it sinks, and that puts you at risk of losing a fighter in sz12 against the UK CA, DD.

    Germany simply does not have enough units to accomplish all of it’s G1 tasks. Either you have to prioritize and let some Allied units survive or you can spread yourself thin in a few battles and risk heavier than expected casualties. And if you set Germany up to attack Egypt or T-J on G2 you will be taking some German aircraft away from Russia for 2 maybe 3 turns and that only helps the Russians stabilize their front. I, myself, prefer to have the German bomber hit Egypt on G1 and then leave Africa solely to the Italians after that.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I think the Norway fighter for SZ 12 is not needed 505.  2 Submarines and a bomber should be more than capable of sinking SZ 12.  Remember, if the defender elects to lose the destroyer first round, you have a shot at sinking the cruiser without loss in the second round!

    (For this reason, in face to face games, I always fire attacker, ask for defender casualties then left defender fire.)


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Cmdr:

    I think the Norway fighter for SZ 12 is not needed 505.  2 Submarines and a bomber should be more than capable of sinking SZ 12.  Remember, if the defender elects to lose the destroyer first round, you have a shot at sinking the cruiser without loss in the second round!

    (For this reason, in face to face games, I always fire attacker, ask for defender casualties then left defender fire.)

    Funny you should say that. In my game with TC, he attacked sz12 with 1 bmb, 1 fig, 2 SS and lost everything for nothing. I had to reimburse him for the bomber and trade him the CA, DD for the 2 SS, 1 fig or else the game would have been over because he had just lost 1/3 of the German air force and I was positioned to hit the Italian fleet with the UK. Good thing for him it wasn’t a league game.  😄

    Actually what I was saying was that if IL wanted to position maximum German aircraft for a G2 attack on T-J, then he would have to let the sz2 BB live or risk spreading himself too thin, but I’m beginning to notice that a lot of people are not even going after the UK BB anyway so it might be a moot point.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Granted, at times the dice can be finiky.  For me, the problem is Baltic States.  I can attack with Everything and I mean EVERYTHING Germany has to bear and Russia will still have 1 Infantry left after all the Germans are destroyed.

    I wouldn’t plan on that being the result, but it will be!


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    in 41 you attack Baltic with 4 infantry 1 art and 1 tank vs. 3 inf

    4 tanks and inf on east Poland vs. 2 infantry

    and

    2 inf, 1 tank, 1 art vs. Ukraine vs. 2 infantry

    Italy shadows the Ukraine force with 1 tank and 1 inf  and fighter in black sea. They build a destroyer to protect from UK bomber, but if uk builds bombers, they save or buy 2 tanks or 1 fighter.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Normally, I attack Baltic States with 3 Infantry, 2 Armor.  This SHOULD result in taking it with 1 or 2 infantry and 2 armor.  So far, I’ve lost Baltic States with Russia holding it with 1 infantry or more EVERY BLASTED GAME (or so it feels) after completely annihilating the Germans!


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