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Help with axis revised strat



  • Hey all. Whenever I play on triplea, I loose most of the time as axis. Does anyone have a saved game i can look at to see some play. I am not a bad player, I usually do all the right stuff, I’m just too slow to pressure russia, and that is what axis cannot be.

    Also if anyone just wants to critique here, I will give a brief summary of what I usually do

    Germany:
    Try to hold egypt, constantly swap with russia using planes to avoid counterattacks. Build 70/30 of inf\art and mass tanks at eastern europe. I never seem to be able to push russia past karaliea and the other 2 on a line with those.

    Japan:
    I usually attack pearl with enough to avoid any losses, and then try to ferry infantry from the isalnds to the mainland, or africa. I try to head my navy through the canal to merge with german navy but sometimes do not make it in time before the US closes the channel via their constant invasion stream. Turn 1 I buy 3 trans and 2 inf, turn 2 i buy 2 factories. From then i start pumping inf\tanks towards russia, but I never get there fast enough. When I do get there, because germany was not able to push their troops to the west they usually have a large stack and it makes it hard to assualt.

    Thanks in advance if anyone has any comments.



  • Well first off, an axis bid might be in order. Typically 8-9 ipc bid to even the game out.

    a few comments on the moves you make. Africa is important. But once it is obvious that the effort is futile, you need to stop pumping dollars into with Germany. the simply fact is, if the Aliies commit to africa, you can’t stop them. It is really important to hit AE hard in r1, so you can tank blitz the dark continent early. The early boost to German income gets more units toward moscow. As far as the art buys. Im not a big fan of art. They are good in some spots, like you have 1 ipc left over. Or you have been making defensive builds with inf, have a big stack, and now are looking to go on the offense, such as with russia. With the germans, being able to position a large stack of tanks quickly to where they need to go is vital. Artillery have to be marched and positioned, tanks are much more flexible, so Id say ease up on art and buy more tanks.

    Your japan start is severely slowing them down, and is probably the biggest reason you arent getting the required pressure on russia. You spend 30 ipc, for 2 factories round 2? This means you have bought no land units r2. This is certainly a very sub-optimal way to get land units to asia quickly. You are not alone though, i see this way too often, and I cringe everytime. Your job as japan is to get as many units in asia as quickly as possible. you start with two trans and 1 IC which produces 8 units per turn. 1 tran usually is killed by the brits, so effectively you start the game with 1 tran. BEFORE buying any factories, you need to maximize the Factory you already have. Maximum output from tokyo is 8 land units. You need to be getting 8 land units to asia every turn as fast as possible. The 3 tran buy r1 is optimal for that. I like to buy extra trans over the 4 required to shuck land units in order to do the things you have described. Take AUS, clear islands of inf, mess around in africa. However, none of these objectives should steal maximum production from toyko if it can be helped. Same goes with buying a factory. I wont disrupt my maximum output from toyko to buy a factory. I will buy one when i am making enough income to afford it. You also have to make sure you can optimally produce 11 land units a turn to buy one factory. When you buy 2 factories, you have to  make sure you can optimally produce 14 units per turn before buying the second one. There is no way you can do this on round 2. So you have severely slowed yourself down by putting the cart before the horse.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I disagree a bit with above poster, for some info on one way to lay japan look at my current game in tournament :

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13009.0

    But disregard anything you see with germany, it all went very wrong…

    But in my opinion you need to expand quickly with japan, meaning build 3 trn´s J1 factories j2. use trns to get moving.



  • @Nix:

    But in my opinion you need to expand quickly with japan, meaning build 3 trn´s J1 factories j2. use trns to get moving.

    Please explain how you can effectively buy 2 factories on Japan 2, and also prodcue 14 land units? This is very ineffective way to get moving as you put it.

    Nobody is in disagreement that Japan has to expand quickly. The question is, what the most effective way to do so. Its going to be several rounds before you can even produce 14 land units (unless u buy all inf), so why choose to build a factory instead of land units in the early round? This does NOT get land units to moscwo faster, but it does the exact opposite, it slows you down.



  • @Nix:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13009.0

    taking a look at the posted game, japan bought exactly 0 land units in the first 2 rounds. This is not nearly optimal. Japan also falied to spend 6 ipc on r1, and 9 ipc on r2. Again, not very otpimal. japans production in this game is at 42 ipc r3, thats pretty fast gains. Allies must have offered no resistence what so ever. Can’t often hope for that. Usually, UK can at least counter India and take it back. But even at 42 production level, this affords japan nothing but 14 infantry per turn in order to maximize it production ability with the 2 new factories (3 factories - 14 unit production max). You cant buy tanks and art. Well u CAN, but then you are not getting as much land units to asia as you possibly can. And that is the ENTIRE goal. To get as many land units to moscow as fast as possible. You missed the chance to buy land units the first 2 rounds in your example. round 3 you can finally buy land units, but only inf, and this restricts you from buying any more trans now. this mean, that while you are htting AUS and new zealand, you arent using those trans shipping units from toyko. Big mistake. SUB optimal strategy IMO. I woudln’t recommend it to a new player



  • Thanks for the info. BTW i usually get a 8 ipc bid and I put 1 tank and 1 inf in africa. Is this what other people are donig?



  • @kendric:

    Thanks for the info. BTW i usually get a 8 ipc bid and I put 1 tank and 1 inf in africa. Is this what other people are donig?

    Yes, this is the most common bid placement. Some will use it for an extra tran in the med. Soe will put 1 tank in africa, and 1 inf in europe. I like my bid to go to africa



  • I saw in that game replay no BS to pearl harbor, how much do people usually send to pearl?
    I can see using the destroyer as a sack, but thats only one so if you don’t wipe them out the first turn you could be looking at loosing a fighter(this is assuming the sub near there is killed by british).

    Also, for the build max in tokyo strat, are you building half inf half tanks? Every infantry built in japan takes about 5 turns to get to russia. Seems like having the beginig wave of inf at russia on turn 5 is kinda slow, granted your original land units will be there sooner but thats not a huge amount.

    Also finally, if your using boats to constantly ship from japan, thast 4 needed, how many more do you guys buy so that you can get all the infantry off the various islands? And if your just ferrying units, what about taking australia, woudl mean you would have to buy atleast 2 more on j2.

    Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get as much info as I can 🙂



  • Oh a followup question for germany. What shoudl I do differently to prevent the UK landing on UK1 in africa and the US landing on US1. Should i be leaving planes in france to threaten that sea zone? Not move my BS to help with egypt so it can still hit that square?



  • IMHO, with a 8 IPC bid, 1 panzer and 1 inf in Lybia you do not need to send the BB there.
    You may consider to attack the BB in the med with all the Med Fleet (1 BB, 1 TRN + 1 inf) and adding the sub from atlantic, supporting the attack with a fig or two. The Inf on the trn is needed to land on Gibriltar, avoiding it can be used as landing spot for UK fighters, that can hit the Med fleet on UK1. You may use 1 fighter and 1 bomber to support attack to Egypt and then land them in NCM in Lybia. About Med DD you have to consider the board situation if you can afford a copule of fighters to attack there you can try to sunk it.
    Land more fighter is possible in France and now you should have airforce from France and from Lybia in striking distance of the sz12 (off Marocco) and also the Med fleet is in range. If you want you can even move the Baltic fleet in sz7 (the Channel) in order to attract fire frome UK and USA. It will be sunk but you will gain a turn and maybe shot down some aircrafts (if lucky enough).
    You can increase the threat on the Allied fleet buying 1 Bomber,2 panzers and 5 infantries in G1, the second bomber is a powerful addiction on the threat to sz12. Keep on buying some fighters by G2 on and you will have a powerful Luftwaffe able to force Allied to stay in a unique big convoy minimizing the number of therritories they can hit each turn and simplifying your defense. Moreover buying inf and some panzers you may be able to press on Russia giving the Allies an hard choice: contesting Africa or going to help Russia from the north route to Karelia? If they go north you may keep the SE almost empty, defending more strongly in France, Germany and EE. To attack Russia you may split the Airforce basing them in France and in EE, and using them in the counterattack against Russia and then switch them for landing.
    This is a general idea. It is not a perfect strategy (I lost games as Germany using it but I have also won a lot). It is not an invincible one. But is a good way to have a Germany strong in defense while able to pressure Russia.
    As AxisofEvil said try to slightly increase panzers buying, avoiding artillery.
    Usually I buy infantries for a couple of turn marching them east, then buy panzers for another couple of turn and then send all of them togheter to occupy Ukraine. If it is possible send the Japanese fighters to cover the advanced German Army. One way to keep Moscow is using 1-2 punch with Germany attacking and then Japan following up with another attack before USSR is able to reinforce.
    And… if you are not playing Low Luck be lucky with dice! 😄



  • @kendric:

    I saw in that game replay no BS to pearl harbor, how much do people usually send to pearl?
    I can see using the destroyer as a sack, but thats only one so if you don’t wipe them out the first turn you could be looking at loosing a fighter(this is assuming the sub near there is killed by british).

    Also, for the build max in tokyo strat, are you building half inf half tanks? Every infantry built in japan takes about 5 turns to get to russia. Seems like having the beginig wave of inf at russia on turn 5 is kinda slow, granted your original land units will be there sooner but thats not a huge amount.

    Also finally, if your using boats to constantly ship from japan, thast 4 needed, how many more do you guys buy so that you can get all the infantry off the various islands? And if your just ferrying units, what about taking australia, woudl mean you would have to buy atleast 2 more on j2.

    Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get as much info as I can 🙂

    Actually, anywhere you put a factory on round 2 is the same distance away from Moscow as toyko is. With trans in sz60, you land units from toyko in Buryatia t1–>Yakut t2–> ENO T3 --> Moscow T4. If you place an IC in Manchurai r2, it is still 4 turns from moscow. Except, you are a turn behind , cuz u cant move units the next round, you have to build them first.  If you place in FIC, its the same thing, 4 turns to moscow. So shuttling from toyko is faster, as you lost a turn building factories, annd then building units in asia. Besides being fatser, you also have much MORE units in asia without building the factories. Because the 30 ipc you spent on factories, i spent on troops headed to moscow. I could do a detailed proof that the buying factories approach gets less units to moscow, and is 1 round slower than the shuttling from toyko approach, but i dont have time now. Maybe if i get bored later at work. But you shouldnt need detailed proof to see it.

    Comparing the 2 approaches:

    r2:  you bought no land units  –  I bought enough to have 4 trans worth of units (8 units).
    r3: You are building 6 land unit in asia (3 in machuria; 3 in FIC). Im landing my 8 units in Bury. I already have 2 more units, and I am 1 turn closer to moscow than you.

    r4+:  Every turn i am making sure to get 8 units form toyko to asia mainland. I can either land in bury, or in FIC, or in both. I sometimes like to do waht i call the weave. Where two trans are in sz60, and 2 trans are in sz36. This way i can land 4 units north and 4 units south every turn. This is way ahead of the factories that only produce 3 units per turn each. So as u can clearly see, i am getting 2 more units to the mainland faster then you can with factory builds. But i WILL put a factory on the mainland with Japan in r4, or r5, or r6. I know its time to buy another factory when my production capacity has increased to the point where I can support building 11 units per turn. The key is you ALWAYS want to maximize your output. 8 from toyko, 3 from a new factory. If you cant afford to buy 11 units per turn, and the units you want to buy, not just inf (i.e. tanks and art), then you arent getting troops to moscow as optimally as you can.

    Typically with Japan, i like 6 transports. 4 commited to shuttling, and 2trans to accomplish other goals. like AUS, New zealand, Africa, Brazil. Whatever i feel like taking. And the tranports are more flexible than the ICs. If I see an oppourtinty, i might hit the us, or i might take the units i just landed in FIC, and go to egypt with them. You cant do that with Factories.

    As far as pearl goes. I like to hit it heavy. But you can also hit it light if u wish, and not leave any big captial ship there to get killed by a us counter. Depends on how much trouble UK gave you r1.  I personally bring 1 AC, 1 DD, 1 SUB, 2 fighters, 1 Bomber when i can.


  • 2007 AAR League

    falied to spend 6 ipc on r1

    no need i don´t have Trn´s to take them of the island, so they would be spent in vain, better have the Ipc so you can adept to other moves.

    Please explain how you can effectively buy 2 factories on Japan 2, and also prodcue 14 land units? This is very ineffective way to get moving as you put it.

    I can´t Produce 14 uits, and i have no intention in doing so.

    Factories saves you 1 round for tanks to get moving, since they are built on land they can move 2 spaces imediatley, if shiped from tokey they are delayed 1 turn, each time.

    the Trns you buy in the start are used to expand your realm, capturing Australia on J2 is normal, taking india on J2 are normal.

    usually i would continue from Australia towards madagascar on j3, SAf j4.

    Also a landing by japan in egypt are a viable option on J3 depending on events.

    Thsi will pump japan over the 50+ mark, adn the 3 factories on the mainland will put out 9 Arm´s/turn, this will seriously scare russia who will on R6 (in worst case)  be forced to stay in caucasus if they don´t want to give Moscow to Japan.

    Tokyo factory is of secondary importance in a game where the allies goes after germany, with is in most games to be honest. (and if they go for a KJF you have time to react with a 3 trn purchase and a save of 6 ipc on j1)

    I have never played against you Axisof Evil, but would be interesting to see how you do it.



  • @kendric:

    Oh a followup question for germany. What shoudl I do differently to prevent the UK landing on UK1 in africa and the US landing on US1. Should i be leaving planes in france to threaten that sea zone? Not move my BS to help with egypt so it can still hit that square?

    As romulus said, you have a couple of options to threaten allied landings with Germany. Moving the med fleet west and taking gibraltar is one option that i have used myself in the past. I used to like it alot when it was new to me, however, now i believe its best to hit Egypt as heavy as you can, in order to ensure UK cant counter it, and prevent you from tank blitzing africa for income. The other options about moving the blatic fleet out to sz 7 is good too. But if/when uk hits it, take ur hits on the surfice ships, and submerge your subs in hopes that they survie to hit and landings in sz12. I used this for a time too, but against good players, they can counter this open pretty easily. However, they usually dont land in africa rd1. What I am a REAL big fan of is the Bomber buy r1 with germany. Even without moving ur med fleet west, the bomber buy alone threatens sz 12 rd1 if you satge your fighters correctly. I use my bomber r1 to hit egypt, and a fighter to hit med dd. they land in Linya. I land 4 fighters in france. And place my new omber in berlin. Now i can hit any allied ships in sz 12 with:

    5 fighters 1 Bomber va 4 trans 1 BB 1 DD

    Calc the odds on this battle and germnay is going to win 100% of the time with an average loss of 3 fighters. 3 fighters is a cost of 30 ipc to the germans, and you prob will replace a few of those however the damage you have done to the allies was far worth it. The allies lost 68 ipc worth of gear. The damage is especially hurtful to UK. You have hit AE hard, and are stealing production from uk. Japan is also stealing production from uk in the pacific. So uk now has to replace the BB u killed, it cant afford another BB, but it NEEDS something to protect any new trans it buys, usually an AC. UK is set back a few turns from this loss! Whcih mean landing are really delayed, and russia is cringing!


  • 2007 AAR League

    A strong bid IMHO is a sub to sz7, then wipe sz2 on g1



  • @Nix:

    I can´t Produce 14 uits, and i have no intention in doing so.

    If you dont max your production output, then u arent getting the max units to asia as fast as you can. Why would you choose to not use a FREE IC you have in toyko that produces 8 units per round, and instead buy 2 new factories at a cost of 30 ipc, that produce only 6 units per turn max?

    Factories saves you 1 round for tanks to get moving, since they are built on land they can move 2 spaces imediatley, if shiped from tokey they are delayed 1 turn, each time.

    this is actually opposite as i have demonstrated in a previous post. The factory is 1 round behind the transports. r2 you have bought no land units, but instead 2 factories, where as i have 8 units at the end of round 2 waiting to get to Bury. r3 you are buying your tanks in Machuria, but i am landing mine in Bury, 1 turn ahead of you. And i remain 1 turn ahead of you for the entire game. I also am getting 2 more units a turn to moscow then you.

    Another issue, you are building only tanks it sounds like. You need inf on the front against russia, as you will be swapping terr with them for a few rounds. Just like in any swapping situation, you dont want your enemy to be losing inf while you lose tanks. Cuz they would be winning the war of attrition. You need a good number of inf up there by moscow to swap effectively with them.

    I have never played against you Axisof Evil, but would be interesting to see how you do it.

    Sure id play with ya. I dont play on the forum or PBEM. Do you play TripleA?



  • @Nix:

    A strong bid IMHO is a sub to sz7, then wipe sz2 on g1

    Ive done this b4 too. Its can cause Uk lots of trouble, taking both of their Battleships r1 is pretty huge.



  • This is really good info guys. Thanks a bunch. The ICs were not to be faster then tranies, but rather allow you to build more tanks since you can only transport half tanks on boats. But I may give the no ics till later strat a go since I have been doing factories for so long. I never built above the 3 on J1 like you are suggesting so that could be the difference.

    Thanks for the detailed recap on germany air defense of africa Rom! Any comments on the weakened egypt retaliation due to not having the 2 extra units from italy there(since the transport went to the west?).

    Also I don’t know what time zone you are in but If either of you are up for a game let me know. I happen to be free most of the morning(central time) tommrow(vacation) which may line up if you live in europe 🙂 Otherwise i usually can only play from like 7:30CST on.



  • @kendric:

    This is really good info guys. Thanks a bunch. The ICs were not to be faster then tranies, but rather allow you to build more tanks since you can only transport half tanks on boats. But I may give the no ics till later strat a go since I have been doing factories for so long. I never built above the 3 on J1 like you are suggesting so that could be the difference.

    Thanks for the detailed recap on germany air defense of africa Rom! Any comments on the weakened egypt retaliation due to not having the 2 extra units from italy there(since the transport went to the west?).

    Also I don’t know what time zone you are in but If either of you are up for a game let me know. I happen to be free most of the morning(central time) tommrow(vacation) which may line up if you live in europe 🙂 Otherwise i usually can only play from like 7:30CST on. Do you play tripleA? thats where i play. i am also CST zone. Yeah, the weaker force in Egypt is a big drawback to moving the med fleet west. UK can usually counter egypt, and deny you alot of income in africa. This is why i always hit egypt hard these days.  But its fun to change it up once in awhile.


  • 2007 AAR League

    i play tripple a now and then 🙂

    Another issue, you are building only tanks it sounds like. You need inf on the front against russia, as you will be swapping terr with them for a few rounds.

    Don´t swap.

    Await critical mass and force russia to withdraw to moscow, then use germany/japan 1-2 punch.

    And if you want to use tokey you are not expanding your IPC´s (need lebensraum 😉  )



  • Yeah triplea. I usually don’t know what I am doing a given evening until that evening comes but i can look for you or IM you or something if you want when I am available. Example tonight i may be available but not sure yet. 🙂 Do you do lowluck? I usually play with it on because nothings worse then a 2 hour game ending because of bad luck. However im flexible 😉



  • @Nix:

    Don´t swap.

    Await critical mass and force russia to withdraw to moscow, then use germany/japan 1-2 punch.

    You do both of these things. You cant pass up the income by not swapping. You also have to leverage the axis advantage in air power. The russians start with 2 planes, the axis powers start with 12 and 2 bombers. Its a war of attrition to crack Moscow. you want the russians to have to use inf in taking back the perimeter terr around moscow. You win much faster when the russians have to use inf on offense rather than defense. Inf are twice as effective on defense then offense!!



  • @kendric:

    Yeah triplea. I usually don’t know what I am doing a given evening until that evening comes but i can look for you or IM you or something if you want when I am available. Example tonight i may be available but not sure yet. 🙂 Do you do lowluck? I usually play with it on because nothings worse then a 2 hour game ending because of bad luck. However im flexible 😉

    I will be on later tongiht. AxisOfEvil tagname so u recognize me. Hope to cya aorund. I have been playing the new version lately though AA50. But im not doen with revised quite yet



  • @kendric:

    This is really good info guys. Thanks a bunch. The ICs were not to be faster then tranies, but rather allow you to build more tanks since you can only transport half tanks on boats. But I may give the no ics till later strat a go since I have been doing factories for so long. I never built above the 3 on J1 like you are suggesting so that could be the difference.

    Thanks for the detailed recap on germany air defense of africa Rom! Any comments on the weakened egypt retaliation due to not having the 2 extra units from italy there(since the transport went to the west?).

    Also I don’t know what time zone you are in but If either of you are up for a game let me know. I happen to be free most of the morning(central time) tommrow(vacation) which may line up if you live in europe 🙂 Otherwise i usually can only play from like 7:30CST on. _Oh. I have said that my approach is not free from problems and one is the possibility of a counter to Egypt. It is a nasty move for Germany tha lose the possibility to blitz Africa. However it weaken India and leave some UK ships open to counter to Japanese East Indies fleet.

    I am Italian, so my time zone is GMT+1, while, Central USA should be GMT-5 or GMT-6. Anyway sometime I stay awake and connect to TripleA Lobby. My nickname is always Romulus, so if you see me online contact me for a game. I usually play with LL, I agree with Kendric, no worse than a game ruined by dice._


  • Moderator

    Germany (with Afr Bid) -
    I go heavy Egy, which means all lib units (with bid), then 2 more from SE and the bom.  You can expect to take with 4-5 units left over.  This is uncounterable by the UK and with either 2 or 3 tanks (depending on bid or what you brought from SE) you can have all of Afr (except Safr) by G2.

    I max out infantry buys early, meaning all inf with no more than 1-2 arm (or rt).  IMO tank dash won’t work against experienced Allied players and there is no sense on getting to Russia if Japan isn’t ready to help out.

    I use minimal defense in WE, maybe 1-2 inf per turn, but if you can get away with placing early armor there do that b/c of their mobility.
    I look to take and hold Ukr by G4-G5, that means armor leaves WE by G3-G4.

    Also anytime you can safely take away a trading territory from Russia with a heavy stack do so.  This could mean a German stack in Kar on G1, or German Stack in Belo on G2.

    Japan
    I go everything to Pearl, everything else to Chi.  (pick off any wandering UK ships like the DD if it is sitting in Sz 59).

    Rd 1 - I buy 3 trns and either 1 rt or 1 arm.
    Rd 2 - 1 trn + 7 ground units
    Rd 3 - 1 IC + 8 ground units
    Rd 4 - 1 IC + 10-11 ground units (I only buy the 2nd IC if I can get to the 10 unit mark, otherwise you don’t need it).

    You can wait on the 2nd IC if you look to place it in Sin, since it helps much more with supply lines.

    Other than that I really look for the Cauc IC to become my 2nd or 3rd J IC.

    If you go 6-7 inf to Chi on Rd 1, you’re looking to take with about 5 inf leftover this puts Sin in jeopardy on J2 b/c of the Japanese air and most players will abondon it.

    You can land 4 units in Bury, 4 Fic and then place 3 at your first IC (assume Fic), while your 5th tran picks up Aus on J3, NZ on J4, Hi on J5.  Or you can go Hi, Nz, then Aus.

    I’ll also do both Hi and Aus on J3 (minus 2 inf to Asia) and then the Hi troops go to Nz and the Aus ships to Mad, you can then plan to meet up your fleets in the South Atlantic which can cause major trouble for the Allies Mid game.

    Since I’m looking to Stack Ukr with Ger on G4, I shoot for a nice size Sin/Yak stack by J4.  You might need a turn of build up but you are looking for a heavy move to Kaz or Nov as Ger sits and waits in Ukr.

    The best option is a G to Wrus move followed by J to Kaz, in this case Moscow or Cauc is guaranteed to fall, but that is pretty difficult to pull off without taking Cauc first, so I’ll try to move J to Kaz first.  This cuts of Persia and likely forces Russia out of Cauc since you can 1-2 it with Germany and Japan.  After that Germany just has to play defense and stack Wrus and hold Berlin while you wait for the Yellow Hordes to take Moscow.

    And of course this is easier said then done. 😄



  • @DarthMaximus:

    Rd 4 - 1 IC + 10-11 ground units (I only buy the 2nd IC if I can get to the 10 unit mark, otherwise you don’t need it).

    Just curious, but after you buy the 2nd IC, you have 3 Ics total, and 14 unti production/turn max. With 1 IC, you have 11 unit max. If u arent ready to produce more than 11 units, why do you buy the second IC?


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