How much do you people actully know about marxism?



  • just want to start a new political opinion thread
    i think it will be fun.



  • hahaha, how would you judged this based on? 😉
    [there are still many books I must read]



  • I fit into none of the categories.

    I know the general economic ideals of Marx. I agree with most, except for one thing. In all of Marx’s assements of history, he never took into account people’s Morals, Ideals, or beliefs. He believed everything revolves around economics.

    Do I think Marxism is a good way to run a country? No. Do I think Capitalism is? No. To run a country, you are required to use a combination of the two. The Government cannot just freely run the economy, it doesn’t work that way. The economy is run by an invisible hand, and no one knows how to make it work. No matter how intelligent.



  • He believed everything revolves around economics.

    Everything does revolve around economics… at least when you get older.

    The economy is run by an invisible hand, and no one knows how to make it work. No matter how intelligent.

    Ha, if only it were that easy…



  • ya i know the choses are a little limited but you can only have 5, i would have put around 10 if i could



  • @Yanny:

    I fit into none of the categories.

    I know the general economic ideals of Marx. I agree with most, except for one thing. In all of Marx’s assements of history, he never took into account people’s Morals, Ideals, or beliefs. He believed everything revolves around economics.

    Do I think Marxism is a good way to run a country? No. Do I think Capitalism is? No. To run a country, you are required to use a combination of the two. The Government cannot just freely run the economy, it doesn’t work that way. The economy is run by an invisible hand, and no one knows how to make it work. No matter how intelligent.

    In your opinion Yanni, what is wrong with the capitalistic system we have now? I can think of some things off the top of my head, but I want to know what you think. Personally, I agree with capitalism.

    In addition, REALISTICALLY, what system would you like to see implemented and/or adopted by our economy? I say realistically, becuase I’d rather not go into “communism in it’s working form, but never realistically achievable.” 😉



  • In addition, REALISTICALLY, what system would you like to see implemented and/or adopted by our economy? I say realistically, becuase I’d rather not go into "communism in it’s working form, but never realistically achievable

    ok now tell what it is that makes you not want to live in marxism (it’s working marxism that we are talking about here) don’t tell it’s the fact you are treated equely and fairly, or that YOU personaly have a say in you goverment, or that you have free helthcare, education and utilitys for life. so tell me what is it thats so apealing about capitlism that you wont even consider marxism.



  • As does Marxism, Capitalism eventually collapses. It just takes longer. See France 1790-1820. Capitalism eventually evolves into a strong class society without Government intervention.

    My Government? One where Government owns some industry, and the people own the rest. See Nuclear Energy thread. If the Government owns Industry, it can produce additional revenue, which result in either a) (ideally) More social programs or b) Lower taxes.

    More Social Programs = Education. Education is the key in a capitalism society to making money. This helps eliminate the unoffical but barring class system which is created by a Capitalism, but the economy is free and will not collapse like in a Marxist system.



  • Pure free-market capitalism would be nice - though it never turns out that way. I wonder why no one bothers to mention that, instead of saying “marxism can’t work…” Look at capitalism… is it pure capitalism as Adam Smith dictates?



  • Exactly what I’m saying. But it doesn’t even have to be pure Capitalism. For example, our country. Money means power. If you have money, you usually can even avoid jail time for the harshest crimes. Its a good example of the problems with Capitalism.

    However, the same holds true with Marxism. If an entire country’s industry is run by the Government, it is doomed to fail. Also, it is too hard to coordinate Republican Democracy in this Marxist Government. It is just too inefficient to efficiently run a Government.

    Marxism works in smaller systems only. See Kibbutz. Nationally, I think it is as flawed as Capitalism.



  • @Yanny:

    More Social Programs = Education. Education is the key in a capitalism society to making money. This helps eliminate the unoffical but barring class system which is created by a Capitalism, but the economy is free and will not collapse like in a Marxist system.

    I agree and I disagree. I don’t see how social programs lead to more education. If anything, social programs such as welfare, social security, and other such programs lead to un-neccessary dependence on the system. However, I do agree that education is the key to succeeding in our society. You can fix the education problem in our society by other means, not throwing more tax-payer funded social programs at it. :roll:



  • the capitalist system does nothing but perpetuate scocial diferences in our scociaty. yes education is the key, but education costs money therefore you must have money in order to get an education to make money. this makes the gap between the rich and the poor widen with each generation.

    heres a speach i wrote and presented for a school project it our lines some basic problems but was forced to leave alot out becase of time restrictions.

    150 years ago, a young German philosopher looked out into the world around him and to his dismay all he saw was oppression exploitation, rampant greed and hate, and apathy. Then he decided that there had to be a better way, a better system in witch the world could run. his name was Karl Marx, and he found his system, he called it communism.

    Today communism is always thought to be an evil dictatorship, where people are under content tyranny. But this is not communism, no that is Stalinism, the perverted misrepresentation of Marx’s original righting. But because of the stigma attached to the word communism I’ll be calling it, what it is now more recognized as Marxism. just so we don’t get confused. But still There is probably no body of ideas that is more slandered or misinterpreted than those of Marxism. And the only thing we can blame for that is our current system.

    Today most of the world lives in what’s called capitalism. this system is based around free enterprises and an economy dependent on the stock market. You may think that this system is perfect. But I bag to differ. Capitalism creates a class society, it has an upper, middle and lower class. the upper class or Bourgeois, make millions of dollars by getting the middle and lower classes or proletariats to work for them. they are by far the minority, they are only 1% of the population yet own 90% of the worlds wealth. And in complete contrast there are thousands of people living on the street, living off what ever the can find. they can’t get a job because they don’t have an education, they don’t have an education because they don’t have money, and they don’t have money because they can’t get a Job!! It’s a vitious cycle of poverty that does nothing but suck people in. And what does that leave? the middle class, the majority of the population. We are the apathetic ones, those that seem as if they could not care less about our situation, are we so conceded to think beyond our own selfish lives? are we too self centred to care at all. And is there nothing more noble we can do then work for a faceless corporation? the truth is that the working class is over worked. Marx once said “the only difference between a slave and a worker is, you buy the slave and rent the worker”. think about it, they sell them their product labour, in order to live. they work long hours for little pay come home with little time to spend with there families, sleep, eat and do it all over again. our apathy is the result of the stresses of daily life under capitalism. we work day in day out with no real care about the real problems in the world. and wile this is all going on here, else where in the world millions of people are starving and being exploited by companies based in north America and we do nothing to stop it.

    Marxism on the other hand is a completely different system from what we have now. it’s a classless system, with no rich and no poor. people get out of the system the exact same what they put in, from every one to there abilities to every one to there needs. Marxist economy is based on need instead of want. Think of that statement alone, based on need instead of want. what do we really need compared to what we want. We don’t need three TVs in a house, we don’t need 2 garages, we don’t need expensive furniture or designer clothes. what we need is better health care, better education, more houses, and more Jobs! but moving on. you wont have to worry about the stock market or inflation because they don’t exist in a planed economy. prices are not determined on supply and demand but rather on labour and material costs. as it should be. eventually money will not be needed at all as people will work to better them selves and society rather then for capital gain. greed and apathy will no longer exist because it wont be taught to our children like it is today. because we can change human nature by changing the conditioning of our environments. and Marxism being the most democratic system ever divesed has it’s own unique system of government. there called soviets. soviets are councils made up of elected representatives from every workplace in a community or city. the soviets act as the government and management for the entire community so every one is working together for a common goal. the members of the soviet are subject to recall at any time. which means they can be in office for as long or as short as the people decide. this allows every one the opportunity to be apart of there government, in the words of Vlatimire Lenin “if every ones a bureaucrat then no ones a bureaucrat.”

    So how do we get to be a Marxist society?. it takes time and a lot of work. it’s been tried in the past in bloody revolutions and quick uprisings. they all ended the same in a Stalinist toltaraiun state which barely resembles the idea that started the change. So we must now take a different approach. a slow and steady progression from capitalism to socialism to Marxism. so how do we become socialist? well Canada is already considered a socialist county along with most western society save the States. but we still have all the problems of a capitalist imperialist excuse for a democracy. but most of these problems can be fixed very simply with very small very manageable repercussions.

    First we need the NDP in power. we need a left wing party to point us in the right directing. We need the right to Strike and form union with out having to worry about back to work legislation and red tape that contradicts the concepts of democracy!! We need total equality of all Sexes and Races. regardless of what ethnic background you are or what god you believe in or weather your a man or a woman. equal pay for work of equal value. It puts an end to all forms of discrimination. workers unity is the way to defeat the conditions that breed racism. We need free Education for all. no more tuition fees and loans that can only keep people from getting an education. We need to pull out of NAFTA, WTO and other deals that are the tools of imperialist exploitation. full employment and decent wages for all. a 32 hour work week with no loss in pay, a right to a job, and a national minimum wage of no less then 2 thirds the average wage. cutting the max. work week creates a labour shortage, that would eliminate unemployment. Free health care for all. Stop with Privatizing the land, all land should remain public for everyone’s use. A socialized plan of production for the fisheries, timber and agriculture. Those workers should have the option to join collective farming or harvesting programs

    But what can we do as students? you probably ask yourself now, what difference could I possible make at my age? the best thing that you can do now is educate your self on these subjects. keep an open mind and don’t become another drone to the capitalists. if you want to help the least you can do is come talk to me I can help you get involved. just don’t do nothing, don’t automatically think that nothing we do will make change. and don’t continue to think that the world is fine just the way it is. ignorance and apathy are routes of all evil in this world. so any questions comments concerns or quires?



  • phreek,

    You think a lot, and I respect that.

    That said, I believe that the class system is human nature, which is why it prevails, to different degrees, in every civilization, and every economic system, from mercantilism to communism.



  • they are by far the minority, they are only 1% of the population yet own 90% of the worlds wealth.

    Yes, but they also pay for most of the world’s costs. I.E: Taxes.

    Other than that, a good essay. I, too, respect your opinion.

    P.S.- Welcome back YB, hasn’t it been awhile…?



  • Mini, I agree with a lot of your points. However, I must emphasize human nature. A person may not need those 3 TVs, but I sure as hell want my Big-Screen, and extra bedside TV, and flatscreen hanging above my head.

    My suggestion is to give everyone the same opportunities. Education is the key here. I agree, completely free and equal Education (College is based on general intelligence and hardwork), is essential. So is totally free health care. These should be Government run industries.

    However, I have to repeat this again, No single entity can understand and run a Government. A Republican Government is too rapped up in Politics to micromanage an economy. A Dictatorship could do it, but you’d get all the bad things involved that a Dictatorship brings.

    A moderate Government is the best solution. Capitalism and Marxism are opposites. Neither work. The middle ground does work.

    When I mean social programs, I am not refering to the disasters of Welfare and Social Security. And I include High-level education in the social programs category.



  • Looking at the “middle ground” right now… I can see the mess the world is in… :-?



  • Yanny, I wonder if you might explain how this all knowing, all powerful invisible hand of the market works. How do we know that an economy can maintain itself with no consious effort on our part? This invisible hand you describe has never really existed, there has always been someone deciding how to manage an economy, it has never been allowed to fall under the control of the hand. I’m even tempted to say the invisible hand is nonexistant and the entire idea is completely ridiculous. Would you like to risk the utter ruin of your nation on a farscical theory that probably doesn’t work? I’d much rather go with a planned economy myself. I never understood is why demand could not be used, not as part of setting price, but as the dictating factor of supply. Marxism does not depend on a small (relatively) group of people dictating how many toasters will be produced, but on a much broader decision making process. Capitalists today seem to know how much to produce in order to maintain an acceptable price (usually), but Communists in the future would not know how much to produce in order to produce enough? Don’t be ridiculous.



  • What Bossk is saying is absolutely correct. Economic planning plays a huge role in the economy. Every economy is in some ways planned. Even free-market economies like HK have some, loose central planning. Economic planning ranges from good (US) to poor (France).



  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    they are by far the minority, they are only 1% of the population yet own 90% of the worlds wealth.

    Yes, but they also pay for most of the world’s costs. I.E: Taxes.

    But they by far do not pay 90% of the worlds taxes! Maybe they pay “most of the world’s cost”, but they relatively they pay much less!



  • @TG:

    What Bossk is saying is absolutely correct. Economic planning plays a huge role in the economy. Every economy is in some ways planned. Even free-market economies like HK have some, loose central planning. Economic planning ranges from good (US) to poor (France).

    And of course, all the companies plan for themselves!
    I wonder why this planning isn’t half as successful when don by the government (on the corp level)……



  • I wonder why this planning isn’t half as successful when don by the government (on the corp level)……

    What would you expect form lazy, corrupt bureaucrats who’ve paid for their positions? That is why the move to privitization has been met by so much political opposition… :-? The california education system is a perfect example of rampant government waste…



  • How can a Government plan human life? A Marxist nation is run like a business. According to the CEO, each person needs 7 glasses of water, 3 apples, and a loaf of bread every day. Every 2 years, they need a new pair of shoes. Every 9 years, they need a new car.

    It simply doesn’t work that way in human life. I, and most people out there, want to control my own life. I don’t want my Government, no matter how fairly elected, making decisions for me.

    The Government is there to protect. Not to run my life. Business should be free, just by the rules. America’s Government just tries to regulate, and does a bad job. Why? Republicans (and some Democrats) are in bed with large companies.

    You talk of economic planning. The Government never planned any overall plan for the country. It just happened. People took risks, and our country grew in wealth.

    The problem in a Capitalist society is when Money = Power. There can never, ever, be a double standard. Thats my problem with Capitalism. The rich never get Prosecuted (see O.J.). Large Companies don’t get punished for breaking the law (Enron, Microsoft).

    France is probably the best, and only, example of a Capitalism turned Marxist nation (well, almost). France, in the late 1700s, was a country of two people. The Wealthy, and the workers. The Wealthy got too powerful, and the workers not powerful enough, and shit happened. A truely Marxist country would of arose. And this is before Marx was born.



  • How can a Government plan human life? A Marxist nation is run like a business. According to the CEO, each person needs 7 glasses of water, 3 apples, and a loaf of bread every day. Every 2 years, they need a new pair of shoes. Every 9 years, they need a new car.

    No, this absolutely wrong! This is almost like asking “Under Marxist Government, we predict that the economy will need to produce 200 nuts and 250 bolts…” It does not work this way at all. Marxism is the Interdependent producers cooperating via the organized intervention of
    the conscious actions of the masses.

    France is probably the best, and only, example of a Capitalism turned Marxist nation (well, almost). France, in the late 1700s, was a country of two people. The Wealthy, and the workers. The Wealthy got too powerful, and the workers not powerful enough, and sh*t happened. A truely Marxist country would of arose. And this is before Marx was born.

    No, France was never close to a Marxist country… it only briefly resembled a socialist country in 1848.

    It simply doesn’t work that way in human life. I, and most people out there, want to control my own life. I don’t want my Government, no matter how fairly elected, making decisions for me.

    No, in the communist society the state has withered away… no one if restricting your rights… :-? Yours resembles nationalism/fascism more than anything else…

    It just happened. People took risks, and our country grew in wealth.

    If only this were that easy there wouldn’t be economic recession at all… :-?



  • The economic problems we are experiences today are attributed to the Enron++ situations. If Bush wasn’t in bed with them, and other countries, we’d be recovered by now.

    Bush’s biggest campaign contributer nationally = Enron.
    “Dicky” Chen = Enron Executive

    But back to Marxism.

    No, in the communist society the state has withered away… no one if restricting your rights… Yours resembles nationalism/fascism more than anything else…

    So, there is basically no Government. Anarchy doesn’t work. Law and Regulation must be enforced.

    No, this absolutely wrong! This is almost like asking “Under Marxist Government, we predict that the economy will need to produce 200 nuts and 250 bolts…” It does not work this way at all. Marxism is the Interdependent producers cooperating via the organized intervention of
    the conscious actions of the masses

    Its called Democracy. A Moderate Economic system would allow limited Government intervention. Too much Government intervention and you have a Democratic Stalinism.



  • @Yanny:

    The economic problems we are experiences today are attributed to the Enron++ situations. If Bush wasn’t in bed with them, and other countries, we’d be recovered by now.

    Bush’s biggest campaign contributer nationally = Enron.
    “Dicky” Chen = Enron Executive

    Bushs presadensial advisior was an Enron Executive


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