• Most or many players will have noticed that the Italian Fleet is vulnerable to the UK on turn 1 if both the UK fighter in  Egypt, and the destroyer+cruiser combo in SZ 12, live.

    A UK bomber+fighter+cruiser+destroyer versus an Italian battleship+2 cruisers is about a 55% UK win  (netting a transport as well) and 65% to kill just the warships. I think most would agree if the Italian navy goes, its pretty much game over, as a full tilt KIF strat will succeed.

    The German attack on Egypt is maxed at 3inf+2tanks+1art+1bomber versus 2inf+tank+art+ftr
    which is about a 75% win for the attacker (a draw, around 80%, does the job as well, but if the final round of combat came down to bomber versus fighter, and the bomber missed and the fighter hit, it might be time for the Germans to call it a day…)

    The attack on SZ 12 is 80% to win for the Germans, sending in 2subs and a fighter - though they could do this light (sub+ftr or two subs), given that it is only absolutely necessary to kill the destroyer.

    So, given that it is a must that the Germans secure the Italian navy, the German player must a) attack egypt b) attack sz12 or c) both

    If b or c, then then one obvious cost is not sinking the British battleship+trans, which is both slightly easier to kill than the dest+cruiser, and also a bigger prize.

    The only problem with option a is that it fails 25% of the time. Not a brilliant prospect, especially if you are better than your opponent, and hope to grind out a long and sure win.

    The problem with b is ignoring Egypt. The multitude of consequences other than leaving the Italians vulnerable, is more than obvious I would think.

    To my mind, c is the only answer.


  • I find that Germany has many options G1 in 1941.
    While I have yet to play, I have read many posts here about what Germany should do G1.

    Very interesting.

    Your observation brings some good discussions to the board.

    I do believe that strategic discussions should list wether N.O.s are active or not (as they couls influence strategic decisions.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Personally i beliave this ganme is best played with N.o´s possiable tech to but i would understand why we would do without them.  But N.O´s are cool.


  • @rockrobinoff:

    So, given that it is a must that the Germans secure the Italian navy, the German player must a) attack egypt b) attack sz12 or c) both

    If b or c, then then one obvious cost is not sinking the British battleship+trans, which is both slightly easier to kill than the dest+cruiser, and also a bigger prize.

    You can do all three. What I did in my game against DM was:

    sz 2: sub (sz 7) + fig (Nwy) + bomber
    sz 12: sub (sz 7) + fig (France) + fig (Ger)
    Egy: inf, tank (France) + African units

    This leaves Egypt a little light (just under 50% to kill the UK fig probably), but you can quite reliably clear out almost all of the UK ships. I don’t think it’s worth it to bypass sz2 only to slightly increase your odds in Egypt or sz 12.


  • @KGB:

    sz 2: sub (sz 7) + fig (Nwy) + bomber
    sz 12: sub (sz 7) + fig (France) + fig (Ger)
    Egy: inf, tank (France) + African units

    This leaves Egypt a little light (just under 50% to kill the UK fig probably), but you can quite reliably clear out almost all of the UK ships. I don’t think it’s worth it to bypass sz2 only to slightly increase your odds in Egypt or sz 12.

    They Egypt attack without the bomber is a bit under 40% to draw, and about 33% to win. Pretty ugly if you ask me.


  • Well, I never said you could have it all… What do you think is better, having those extra Egypt odds or killing those British ships? Suppose you could also send sub, fig to sz 2, though that is riskier than not having the bomber in Egypt (and you don’t kill the trn if it’s a draw).


  • @KGB:

    Well, I never said you could have it all… What do you think is better, having those extra Egypt odds or killing those British ships? Suppose you could also send sub, fig to sz 2, though that is riskier than not having the bomber in Egypt (and you don’t kill the trn if it’s a draw).

    I think Egypt light is a disaster. Sub + Ftr to SZ 2 is about 40%.

    What if you lose both? That’s probably game…


  • @axis_roll:

    I do believe that strategic discussions should list wether N.O.s are active or not (as they couls influence strategic decisions.

    Sure, whether tech on or off is important as well. That said, I don’t think whether N.O. on or off effects whether you need to protect the Italian navy.


  • Is it really a disaster if you lose in Egypt? The tradeoff (if you lose, whereas there’s 40% of a draw or better) is losing a German trn and, say, 2 German ground units, versus killing a UK BB and transport… Seems worth it to me.


  • @KGB:

    Is it really a disaster if you lose in Egypt? The tradeoff (if you lose, whereas there’s 40% of a draw or better) is losing a German trn and, say, 2 German ground units, versus killing a UK BB and transport… Seems worth it to me.

    Why “say” losing two ground units? Winning Egypt light, barring very excellent dice, means surviving with one unit, or drawing. Losing four or five units. All of that happening no better than 40% of the time. Very dodgy battle.


  • I mean losing 2 ground units more than when you send the bomber to Egypt… We’re comparing sending the bomber to Egypt & skipping sz 2 to using ground units only in Egypt and sending the bomber to sz2.


  • Right. I have to admit, reducing UK to only a fighter/occasionally winning the battle, plus sinking all of the UK boats, might be best.


  • I’d never put the game on bad odds.  Fight the battles on bad odds you can afford to lose, and make sure you win the battles you need to win.

    If you’ll lose the game if you attack and lose the battle… I wouldn’t fight it, if you’d lose the game and have bad odds, that’s just silly.


  • I´d go for all three aswell.

    So what if you lose against the Brits in Egypt light ?
    You will at least have softened it up for the Italians to take, you have reduced possible defense units that would otherwise run to India, and the Egyptian IPC in Italian hands might be better then when they are in German´s.

    Add the fact that during that exercition, you will have reduced the Royal Navy aswell.

    So, in short, even if Egypt light turns out bad, you still have a win/win situation.


  • Looks like I’m the Montgomery of the forum 🙂

    Well, the way I always play the Axis is I think of the game in terms of keeping my initial production.  There are some things where if you lose them, you can’t afford to rebuild them.  I would include most of the German airforce like this.

    So really, if you lose a ton of production points worth of materials to gain a short term advantage … what have you really gained?

    The allies can afford to throw away production since they’re so rich at the beginning, so they can throw stuff away to slow the advance, I don’t think throwing away production will work against a good allies opponents.

    When I played I took my German units out of Africa and just tried to hold England with Italian troops.  Then I focused on blowing the English navy out of the waters… if England keeps it’s fleet and can attack all along the coast, I think it’s over for Germany.  Africa, you can lose it and still win the game so it worked for me.  I haven’t played enough to comment on whether this will always work though, we’ll see.


  • I still haven’t seen a great need to venture off into Egypt on G1.

    Now killing the SZ12 fleet that is a priority. I also leave the UK BB alone, I don’t see it as an immediate enough of a threat to weaken my other battles.


  • @Alair:

    Looks like I’m the Montgomery of the forum 🙂

    Well, the way I always play the Axis is I think of the game in terms of keeping my initial production.  There are some things where if you lose them, you can’t afford to rebuild them.  I would include most of the German airforce like this.

    So really, if you lose a ton of production points worth of materials to gain a short term advantage … what have you really gained?

    The allies can afford to throw away production since they’re so rich at the beginning, so they can throw stuff away to slow the advance, I don’t think throwing away production will work against a good allies opponents.

    When I played I took my German units out of Africa and just tried to hold England with Italian troops.  Then I focused on blowing the English navy out of the waters… if England keeps it’s fleet and can attack all along the coast, I think it’s over for Germany.  Africa, you can lose it and still win the game so it worked for me.  I haven’t played enough to comment on whether this will always work though, we’ll see.

    Alair, I understand what you are saying (and going by your action report, you are right  😉 ), but even though I understand (and agree) , I also find myself often succesful with the Axis by going in agressive, losing units, but definitely winning territory.

    Sure, the Axis will lose many of their initial units, but so do the Allies.
    And the allies have the problem, that they will always have to cross the sea to reinforce.
    Something which they can´t when they have no money.

    And guess where that money went? It went to the Axis by their aggressive opening, and is now spent on a reinforced Luftwaffe and fleet, that just took out all allied ships.


  • Yea, I see what you’re saying.  It might be baggage from the original AA I’m bringing with me into the anniversary version, where I should be looking at it as a completely new game so I don’t cloud my judgement.

    With that being said, I relooked at the situation with Egypt.

    Taking Egypt on G1 is a bad idea, much less weakening an attack somewhere else to do it.

    If I was playing England I’d counterattack with 2 from Trans-Jordan and an infantry and artillery from India.  If you do take Egypt, even with using all the material available, you’ll lose it E1.

    My Australian fleet would then move to SZ 39 in the noncombat round…. and I would produce an industrial complex on India.

    Japan has 0% chance of taking it on J1.

    If Japan moves aggressively to take india on J2, I’d move an infantry and artillery from Australia to India, and produce on India as defensively as possible.

    India should stand barring Japan dumping everything possible into taking it.

    Anyways…

    On E1, England retakes it.

    On G2, I don’t believe they’ll have a counter attack to retake Egypt.  It depends on airforce placement… there’s a good chance Germany will have fighters on Morrocco… but even then, with a really aggressive Germany, you won’t have much airforce left anyways.  I’m undecided on whether to build an industrial complex in South Africa or not… that’s what I’d always do in the original AA.  It would depend on what else was going on… if Germany looked intent on Africa in G1 I would, depending on how the G1 fleet battles went.


  • Alair, two errors in your judgement.

    It’s not Germany objective to take Egypt on G1. It’s objective is to clear the fighter (killing all units). On Italy 1 you can then walk in and hold Egypt until the allies arrive at Morocco later in the game.

    Also on J1 you can’t take India, true, but you seem to forget that Japan moves before UK!!! So you build that IC on UK1, it’s gone by J2 even before you produced one single unit in it.  😉


  • @Alair:

    Taking Egypt on G1 is a bad idea, much less weakening an attack somewhere else to do it.

    If I was playing England I’d counterattack with 2 from Trans-Jordan and an infantry and artillery from India.  If you do take Egypt, even with using all the material available, you’ll lose it E1.

    This is both erroneous and beside the point.

    Japan playing before UK permits the Japanese to sink the dest+trans combo off of India with a fighter (50% chance of sinking both, or 2, with a 95%).

    This limits UK counter attack to the bomber from England and the two inf in Trans Jordan, which the Germans would welcome, even if they stand lose it with the average material they will have left in Egypt after their maximum attack (1 tank).

    Such a counter attack would mean the bomber is not being used elsewhere, like to sink the baltic navy. In addtion, when the bomber is forced to land in Trans Jordan, it dies when the Italians attack it.

    The absence of the Trans Jordan inf would make India fall easier, putting somewhat more pressure on Russia from Japan.

    Destroying the British fighter in Egypt is an obvious and large plus.


  • You’re right, Japan does go before England, but I don’t see Japan knocking out the fleet off India.

    You’re talking about what can be done, vs what most people would do.  It would require moving the aircraft carrier to SZ 37 to hit the destroyer with any fighters.  If Japan did move their fleet to off Burma then I’d adapt to defending against a KEF strategy and play aggressively with the US to move against Japan.  That looks like it would be a ‘take out India’ strategy with Japan which would be successful, but you’d be cash poor focusing on India vs taking territories or sinking the American fleet so there is a tradeoff.

    I’ve read a couple of battle reports, but I’ve never seen Japan their fleet to that sea zone.  Japan has a lot to do J1, I don’t see it as high priority to take out that fleet.

    Another thing, when E1 counterattacks and takes Egypt back, if I1 attacks with everything they have they could take Egypt back, but I don’t think they’d be walking in, they would take heavy casualties…  If England moved their bomber to south Africa E1 then they could throw that in to the African battles.  Then, with the transport there could be another counterattack E2 using the transport and bomber, but it would depend on how the dice went.


  • @Alair:

    You’re right, Japan does go before England, but I don’t see Japan knocking out the fleet off India.

    You’re talking about what can be done, vs what most people would do.

    No, I am talking about what should be done. What most people do is not relevant.

    It would require moving the aircraft carrier to SZ 37 to hit the destroyer with any fighters.  If Japan did move their fleet to off Burma then I’d adapt to defending against a KEF strategy and play aggressively with the US to move against Japan.  That looks like it would be a ‘take out India’ strategy with Japan which would be successful, but you’d be cash poor focusing on India vs taking territories or sinking the American fleet so there is a tradeoff.

    I am afraid this is also incorrect. You can take east indies and borneo, destroy most of china,sink the USA battleship, sink the west coast dest+trans, sink the phillipines fleet, blow up burma and kwangtun, and destroy the indian fleet. All of this quite cleanly and simply.

    I’ve read a couple of battle reports, but I’ve never seen Japan their fleet to that sea zone.  Japan has a lot to do J1, I don’t see it as high priority to take out that fleet.

    Another thing, when E1 counterattacks and takes Egypt back, if I1 attacks with everything they have they could take Egypt back, but I don’t think they’d be walking in, they would take heavy casualties…  If England moved their bomber to south Africa E1 then they could throw that in to the African battles.  Then, with the transport there could be another counterattack E2 using the transport and bomber, but it would depend on how the dice went.

    Again, all of this depends on Japan not sinking the Indian fleet. You say they have too much to do. I suggest they can achieve just about everything if they want to. Have a look at the board.


  • Interesting discussion, I certainly agree Gibraltar fleet (sz12) and Egypt is a go for Germany. Japan WILL start-off very strong and I’ve found that a South African IC is the only safe place to build an IC for UK. You HAVE TO have Africa at least in part as UK or your production will be measly. So the only other option to a South Africa IC is a maximized Africa attack by USA.

    For Germany:
    sz12-> attack with 2 subs and 1 ftr
    Egypt-> attack with 2 inf, 1 art, 2 arm, 1 bmb
    Then use Italian navy to take Egypt+Transjordan and help out vs. Caucasus.

    For Allies:
    Either:
    South Africa IC+invasions of Scandinavia by UK, USA focus on Italy+bombers-> both D-day after Africa/Italy secure.
    or
    All-out US attack on Africa+Italy, UK focus on bombers + D-day.

    I haven’t seen an India IC defended yet so I’m not sure about that!


  • @Alair:

    You’re right, Japan does go before England, but I don’t see Japan knocking out the fleet off India.

    You’re talking about what can be done, vs what most people would do.  It would require moving the aircraft carrier to SZ 37 to hit the destroyer with any fighters.  If Japan did move their fleet to off Burma then I’d adapt to defending against a KEF strategy and play aggressively with the US to move against Japan.  That looks like it would be a ‘take out India’ strategy with Japan which would be successful, but you’d be cash poor focusing on India vs taking territories or sinking the American fleet so there is a tradeoff.

    I’ve read a couple of battle reports, but I’ve never seen Japan their fleet to that sea zone.  Japan has a lot to do J1, I don’t see it as high priority to take out that fleet.

    Another thing, when E1 counterattacks and takes Egypt back, if I1 attacks with everything they have they could take Egypt back, but I don’t think they’d be walking in, they would take heavy casualties…  If England moved their bomber to south Africa E1 then they could throw that in to the African battles.  Then, with the transport there could be another counterattack E2 using the transport and bomber, but it would depend on how the dice went.

    If there is one thing that any decent Japanese player will always do is kill that DD+trn for the coast of India!! All other attacks can be ignored, but that one is a clear must. I would walk away straight from the game if I would be Germany and my axis partner would not attack those ships……


  • No, killing the chinese fighter is the most important. You cannot rebuy it etc etc …

Suggested Topics

  • 34
  • 44
  • 29
  • 3
  • 3
  • 17
  • 124
  • 20
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

41
Online

16.4k
Users

38.2k
Topics

1.6m
Posts