• F_alk, you are obviously anti-religious, and hence you stopped looking at the history of imperialism and “manifest destinies” around the time of the beginnings of the catholic church. The Romans prior to that had much greater imperialistic tendencies with NO missionaric spirit. As did the Greeks before them, as well as the Persians, Assyrians, the Egyptions, the Chinese and Mongols, the Aztecs the Iroquois blah blah blah. To blame current American war-mongering on religious zeal when Christ was extremely clear in his admonishing us to love our enemies is i believe a mistake.
    The fact is, it takes little effort for someone to yell “look over there. They might attack us. The best way to deal with this is to attack us first”. Similarly human nature decrees that since this guy yelled, he must be right, and it is imperitive to jump into a fight. May this man be motivated by religious issues? Possibly. As well as economic, political and other selfish ones. Because of a desire to make the world outside of his tiny realm a better place . . . ?


  • @cystic:

    F_alk, you are obviously anti-religious,

    anti-church fits better

    and hence you stopped looking at the history of imperialism and “manifest destinies” around the time of the beginnings of the catholic church. The Romans prior to that had much greater imperialistic tendencies with NO missionaric spirit. As did the Greeks before them, as well as the Persians, Assyrians, the Egyptions, the Chinese and Mongols, the Aztecs the Iroquois blah blah blah. To blame current American war-mongering on religious zeal when Christ was extremely clear in his admonishing us to love our enemies is i believe a mistake.

    Yes, the Romans were imperialistic, but they showed a lot of “respect” to the conquered people, for example in fitting in their panteon into the roman one and not “killing” their gods. The Greek imperialism was rather small scale, with the expansion either limited to close-by areas as the turkish coast, or when far away building trade-cities.
    But you are right, there was no missionaric spirit by those cultures.
    That’s why i mentioned it as one of the main differences between western “imperialism” (not to be confused with the late 19th century phenomenon). And i don’t only blame the american war-mongering on that, but more or less all european-rooted imperialism (see the older post with the examples).
    Sure, Christ said you shouldn’t do that that way, but still the merging of christianity and roman culture lead IMHO to this “new” class of colonialism.

    The fact is, it takes little effort for someone to yell “look over there. They might attack us. The best way to deal with this is to attack us first”. Similarly human nature decrees that since this guy yelled, he must be right, and it is imperitive to jump into a fight. May this man be motivated by religious issues? Possibly. As well as economic, political and other selfish ones. Because of a desire to make the world outside of his tiny realm a better place . . . ?

    The different motives are probably all true, but most often in “western” history, this motives where “morally legalized” by taking the cross:
    Have a look at how each army in the first world war was blessed by their priests. “God with us” was a common phrase for any combatant there.
    I don’t blame christianity, i blame the church for becoming too word-ly, therefore having interest in defending its power and property, for getting too involved into political games of power, for getting corrupted.
    Today, the situation of the church is different. It lost most of its power. Though it’s still influential in spiritual questions, and that’s where it belongs IMHO.


  • About intervention by China, remember that Sinkiang makes up about a third of China and it is sparsely populated. It also is one of China’s occupied territories. It is most likely safe to say that Tibet would rise up against China after an invasion would start by the US and that Manchuria might as well, as it has also been hoping for independence from China. I doubt that Chinese would be willing to risk not only nuclear war, but domestic risings while they attempt to repel an invasion by the world’s superpower.


  • well, 'cept for in America where they do not even know what goes on in the world

    A’hem… :evil: I hardly doubt that anyone else in the world really understands us either. Most of the world’s opinion about us is formed out of jealously. :-?

    Consider the following possible scenario…

    • Russia, China, or France veto the Iraq resolution.
    • Bush decides to attack Iraq and begins collecting forces in the gulf
    • Iran begins moving forces to its border with Iraq to “secure the border” for the upcoming US invasion.
    • The US attacks Iraq. Initial bombing is messy, the bulk of Iraqi forces are in urban centers. Ground forces are needed.
    • US commits ground forces to Iraq.
    • China invades Taiwan claiming the US military hardware sold to Taiwan is a serious threat to Mainland China. A preventive/defensive strike is warranted by China for the same reasons the U.S. is invading Iraq.
    • Iranian forces cross the Iraqi border. Iran claims it is crossing the border to provide humanitarian relief to innocent Iraqi civilians caught in the conflict. The Iranian troops are there simply to provide security for Iranian humanitarian relief workers and Iraqi citizens who might otherwise be terrorized by elements of Saddams military. It is noted however that Iranian military forces seem to be focused on diffing in around eastern Iraqi oil fields.

    I think if it escalated to that proportion, then we’d have to make some serious alliances. That above scenario would be grounds for a world-class war, not simply an American war.


  • I would think that the Iranians would be crossing the border as part of the coalition. Let’s not forget that part of Iraq was promised to Jordan, I’m sure they would help too.


  • Geze,

    In response to your claims:

    A.) The largest military in the world, if unarmed, can be mowed down by machine guns.
    B) We wouldn’t be invading China, merely keeping them out of a North Korean conflict.
    C) The Himilayas and the desert contain about 4 FREAKIN PERCENT OF CHINA’S POPULATION!!!
    D) Third largest country still loses to #1 military…
    E) We sold them the nukes that they do have, so who do YOU think has MORE nukes?
    F) (just a side note…) The reason that WW3 wasn’t started during the Cold War was this… if they launch nukes against US, they WILL BE DEAD IN 15 MINUTES!!! (If they are lucky)


  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    well, 'cept for in America where they do not even know what goes on in the world

    A’hem… :evil: I hardly doubt that anyone else in the world really understands us either. Most of the world’s opinion about us is formed out of jealously. :-?

    Actually, that’s not true. Most of the hatred toward America in the rest of the world is because we treat non-americans so poorly. How many dictatorships exist soley because of U.S. backing of that dictator? Saddam Hussien used to be one of our best allies because he fought against Iran. Now he’s refusing to be our puppet so we want him out.

    Iran was our enemy because when the Iranians rose up and overthrew the Shah to install a democracy, we helped the Shah overthrow the fledgling democracy and remain a tyrant. Ironic that America would overthrow a democracy, but I guess cheap oil for U.S. citizens comes before freedom for non-Americans. Of course as a consequence of our actions to maintian the Shah, militant Islam rose to power in Iran and overthrew the Shah. Remember the Iranian hostages? Didn’t you ever wonder why they targeted the U.S embassy. Its because we backed that bastard the Shah. We were getting what we deserved. Oh, but in America the media was all “Why is this happening to us.” “poor us” “Muslims are bad” … Puh-lease

    Consider the following possible scenario…

    • Russia, China, or France veto the Iraq resolution.
    • Bush decides to attack Iraq and begins collecting forces in the gulf
    • Iran begins moving forces to its border with Iraq to “secure the border” for the upcoming US invasion.
    • The US attacks Iraq. Initial bombing is messy, the bulk of Iraqi forces are in urban centers. Ground forces are needed.
    • US commits ground forces to Iraq.
    • China invades Taiwan claiming the US military hardware sold to Taiwan is a serious threat to Mainland China. A preventive/defensive strike is warranted by China for the same reasons the U.S. is invading Iraq.
    • Iranian forces cross the Iraqi border. Iran claims it is crossing the border to provide humanitarian relief to innocent Iraqi civilians caught in the conflict. The Iranian troops are there simply to provide security for Iranian humanitarian relief workers and Iraqi citizens who might otherwise be terrorized by elements of Saddams military. It is noted however that Iranian military forces seem to be focused on diffing in around eastern Iraqi oil fields.

    I think if it escalated to that proportion, then we’d have to make some serious alliances. That above scenario would be grounds for a world-class war, not simply an American war.

    Alliances with whom? We already declared Iran to be part of the “Axis of Evil”. Do you really think they are just going to sit there while we kick Iraqs ass, and we keep hinting “You’re next!”. The U.S. forced would be screwed if Iran attacked us in Iraq. But as I suggested above, they would more likely take control of Iraq oil fields under a pretext of humanitarian relief. If the U.S. killed any Iranains you can be sure it would be a catalyst for mobilising the Arab world against the U.S. If America launches an attack on Iraq without U.N. support, then it is a U.S. only war. The NATO treaty does not allow our allies to help us invade other countries.


  • @city:

    Geze,

    In response to your claims:

    A.) The largest military in the world, if unarmed, can be mowed down by machine guns.
    B) We wouldn’t be invading China, merely keeping them out of a North Korean conflict.
    C) The Himilayas and the desert contain about 4 FREAKIN PERCENT OF CHINA’S POPULATION!!!
    D) Third largest country still loses to #1 military…
    E) We sold them the nukes that they do have, so who do YOU think has MORE nukes?
    F) (just a side note…) The reason that WW3 wasn’t started during the Cold War was this… if they launch nukes against US, they WILL BE DEAD IN 15 MINUTES!!! (If they are lucky)

    If the U.S. attacked North Korea, then China would help to defend them. We were winning the Korean war until China helped them the last time. Our technology edge didn’t help much them. When you’re outnumbered 20 to 1 its hard to win any battle.

    Points to consider:

    • China shares a border with North Korea so getting material into N Korea is not an issue for China.
    • The US. would have to ship everything by sea or air to south korea. That is a major disadvantage.
    • China has the largest army in the world. I believe their army is bigger than the entire population of the United states. Using conventional weapons, how long do you think it would take for the US. military to kill half of all Americans. American citizens are even less trained and poorly armed than Chinese soldiers, but to kill millions is just an impossible task. The only way Saddam Hussien was able to stop the Human Wave attacks by Iran was to use chemical weapons targeted using U.S. intelligence information about Iranain troop deployments. If the U.S. resorted to weapons of mass destruction in an attack on North Korea, you can kiss Tokyo goodbye.

    Isn’t is ironic that we condemn Saddam Hussien for using chemical weapons against the Kurds, but not against the Iranians? Probably because we would have to admit publicly that we told Hussien where to drop them. Keep scrubbing noble America, those darn blood stains will come off your hands eventually. :oops:


  • Actually, that’s not true. Most of the hatred toward America in the rest of the world is because we treat non-americans so poorly. How many dictatorships exist soley because of U.S. backing of that dictator? Saddam Hussien used to be one of our best allies because he fought against Iran. Now he’s refusing to be our puppet so we want him out.

    Iran was our enemy because when the Iranians rose up and overthrew the Shah to install a democracy, we helped the Shah overthrow the fledgling democracy and remain a tyrant. Ironic that America would overthrow a democracy, but I guess cheap oil for U.S. citizens comes before freedom for non-Americans. Of course as a consequence of our actions to maintian the Shah, militant Islam rose to power in Iran and overthrew the Shah. Remember the Iranian hostages? Didn’t you ever wonder why they targeted the U.S embassy. Its because we backed that bastard the Shah. We were getting what we deserved. Oh, but in America the media was all “Why is this happening to us.” “poor us” “Muslims are bad” … Puh-lease

    What’s your point? It’s not big news that the U.S. has allied itself with people or countries that later turn into our enemies. Such occurences happened during WW2 with Russia. These alliances, however, HAVE BEEN NECESSARY to defeat a bigger evil. It’s all part of the game.

    I still maintain my opinion that the hatred that most people feel towards America is born out of their jealously for what we have. :-?


  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    What’s your point? It’s not big news that the U.S. has allied itself with people or countries that later turn into our enemies. Such occurences happened during WW2 with Russia. These alliances, however, HAVE BEEN NECESSARY to defeat a bigger evil. It’s all part of the game.

    I still maintain my opinion that the hatred that most people feel towards America is born out of their jealously for what we have. :-?

    Points:
    1. What do we have in America that other people might be jealous of?
    2. There are two major camps of thought on governing. The first (dominant in America) camp says: “The ends justifies the means”, the second camp says it does not. I am a member of the second camp. I believe America should treat all people with the same respect and diginity for basic human rights that it grants its own citizens. That means, not supporting dictators ever (:cough: Pakistan. :cough:) It means not saying its okay to drop Chemical weapons on our enemies (Iran), but not our friends (Kurds). etc


  • Zero,

    There are few things in this world that I know alot about, but one of them is the Korean Conflict.
    I assure you, Korea was very similar to Vietnam: Both times we sent our men in, but didn’t allow them to win… (Containment doesn’t work…)
    If we had wanted to, 300,000 Red Chinese would have never been able to cross the Yalu River into North Korea. At the time, there were 6 bridges ( of respectable proportion) that crossed the Yalu. Supreme Commander of Allied Powers Douglas MacArthur asked for permission to take those bridges out in early 1950. Permission was denied, and the rest is history.

    My point in all of this is this: you might be right in saying that we could never take out the Red Army itself. I just want to make the point that, as in 1950, our tech advantages (in the last case, that was our air power) can stop the army from mobilizing any foreign offensive, and that includes trying to cross that river…


  • @EmuGod:

    I doubt that Chinese would be willing to risk not only nuclear war, but domestic risings while they attempt to repel an invasion by the world’s superpower.

    I hope that the US-Americans are as unwilling to risk a nuclear war as the Chinese.
    And why would a war, being fought in a third country, lead to an invasion of the US into China…. ? That would be like the US shouting, “Come on, try to hit us with your ICBMs”…


  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    well, 'cept for in America where they do not even know what goes on in the world

    A’hem… :evil: I hardly doubt that anyone else in the world really understands us either. Most of the world’s opinion about us is formed out of jealously. :-?

    AAAAAhm…… so, you first agree that the ordinary USy doesn’t know much of the outside world… and then state that the outside world is just jealous.
    Only conclusion that i can come to is: You must be one of the rare excemptions, and be an USy who knows a lot about the outside world.

    Unfortunately, i don’t think that this is so. Therefore one of the above statements must be wrong.
    Maybe it’s the arrogance of the average USy to think he/she knows about the rest of the world, including why they might dislike the US… ?

    I think if it escalated to that proportion, then we’d have to make some serious alliances. That above scenario would be grounds for a world-class war, not simply an American war.

    Why should the world follow you into the grave?


  • @Deviant:Scripter:


    Iran was our enemy because when the Iranians rose up and overthrew the Shah to install a democracy, we helped the Shah overthrow the fledgling democracy and remain a tyrant. Ironic that America would overthrow a democracy, but I guess cheap oil for U.S. citizens comes before freedom for non-Americans…

    …These alliances, however, HAVE BEEN NECESSARY to defeat a bigger evil. It’s all part of the game.

    Democracy is a bigger evil ?

    And i still say: It’s not jealousy, why i dislike the behavior shown my most USies….

    What should i be jealous of?
    Crappy public transportation system? Lousy legal system? Footwalks ending in nothing? Over-individualistic health system without a spark of community spirt or solidarity? Gang fights? Massive suburbias? School massacres and a gun lobby that behaves like they want to promote more?
    Bad beer, bad whisky, pan pizzas???

    Naaaaa… Jealousy surely is not the reason!


  • I have to whole-heartedly agree with F_alk and Zero here. I have not been to another 1st world country where the people seem at all jealous of America, or even wish to be more like them. Certainly they enjoy certain tv shows and pop stars, but they have their own worlds, lives, culture etc.
    Certainly as well there are 3rd world countries with jealous tendencies aimed towards the US - but why the US??? Canada, Japan, Sweden, and several other countries have a higher standard of living. European and Asian culture is more diverse and beautiful (relative to N.A. culture).
    Also please stop throwing around the concepts of Nuclear war as tho’ someone could actually win one. Everyone would lose. Everyone. The environment would be crap irrespective of some nation standing. around 90% of Canada’s population would be destroyed. Stop being so crazy.


  • @cystic:

    …Stop being so crazy.

    clap clap clap


  • I think that you guys might be trying to dispute a claim that was fallacious to begin with.

    Who ever said that 1st world nations envied the US? They seem to be happy where they are, for if they weren’t, we would have INS problems with Canada, not Mexico, Cuba, etc. It’s the 3rd world nations that envy America.


  • @city:

    Geze,

    In response to your claims:

    A.) The largest military in the world, if unarmed, can be mowed down by machine guns.
    B) We wouldn’t be invading China, merely keeping them out of a North Korean conflict.
    C) The Himilayas and the desert contain about 4 FREAKIN PERCENT OF CHINA’S POPULATION!!!
    D) Third largest country still loses to #1 military…
    E) We sold them the nukes that they do have, so who do YOU think has MORE nukes?
    F) (just a side note…) The reason that WW3 wasn’t started during the Cold War was this… if they launch nukes against US, they WILL BE DEAD IN 15 MINUTES!!! (If they are lucky)

    good point. I’ll shut up now


  • @city:

    I think that you guys might be trying to dispute a claim that was fallacious to begin with.

    Who ever said that 1st world nations envied the US? They seem to be happy where they are, for if they weren’t, we would have INS problems with Canada, not Mexico, Cuba, etc. It’s the 3rd world nations that envy America.

    Well, why don’t you just look at what we talk about, before you accuse us:

    @Deviant:Scripter:

    A’hem… :evil: I hardly doubt that anyone else in the world really understands us either. Most of the world’s opinion about us is formed out of jealously. :-?

    So: “Most of the world”… you could argue that “most” of the people on this planet live in third world countries … But then, what about the “anyone else” in the sentence before that.
    You could claim that this sentence excludes first world nations, but to me (as a first world citizen) it sounds as if the above statement is to include me.


  • @city:

    A.) The largest military in the world, if unarmed, can be mowed down by machine guns.
    B) We wouldn’t be invading China, merely keeping them out of a North Korean conflict.

    D) Third largest country still loses to #1 military…
    E) We sold them the nukes that they do have, so who do YOU think has MORE nukes?
    F) (just a side note…) The reason that WW3 wasn’t started during the Cold War was this… if they launch nukes against US, they WILL BE DEAD IN 15 MINUTES!!! (If they are lucky)

    @ A) machine guns overheat and need ammunition: if you can’t bring in supplies well enough, human waves even with knives and fists will win against any army.
    @ B) that is an important point, however i doubt that the current US government has the diplomatic skills to get that point across.
    @ D) does it?
    @ E)+F) you still think in terms of the 50’s, don’t you? One overkill is more than enough for any war. Another reason for WW3 not having started is that the US governments up to now where smart enough to know that F) holds for them as well: If they launched ICBM, then they would have been dead in 15 minutes. You really seem to think that there is a way to “win” a nuclear war, don’t you??

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