Air can't attack subs rule?



  • Where is the rule that states air units can’t attack submarines unless there’s a destroyer present?  I’ve only seen this rule in the destroyer section, at the end of the manual:
    @rulebook:

    Additionally, your aircraft may attack enemy submarines.

    I’m aware that subs can submerged when there isn’t a enemy DD present, but I don’t see anything that says aircraft can’t attack or have have their attack results applied to submarines without a DD present. For example, what happens when a German CC and some German aircraft attack a willing group of (only) British subs? Can the aircraft attack? Where are the rules governing this? Thanks!!



  • I think if the subs decide they want to sink the CC they stay and fight and then the aircraft can hit them because they decided to stay. The destroyer takes away their ability to sneak away so they must stay and fight and are vulnerable to aircraft……I think.


  • Official Answers

    Somehow, the actual rule that says that air unit hits can’t be applied to subs unless you have a destroyer didn’t make it into the final draft of the rulebook.  This will be corrected by an erratum when the FAQ is published (soon, I hope).



  • @Krieghund:

    Somehow, the actual rule that says that air unit hits can’t be applied to subs unless you have a destroyer didn’t make it into the final draft of the rulebook.  This will be corrected by an erratum when the FAQ is published (soon, I hope).

    This is solid, concrete, unmovable fact? OK thanks for clearing that up.



  • @Krieghund:

    Somehow, the actual rule that says that air unit hits can’t be applied to subs unless you have a destroyer didn’t make it into the final draft of the rulebook.  This will be corrected by an erratum when the FAQ is published (soon, I hope).

    Really? This is really … incredible! One of the innovation in the new rulebook is not in the rulebook! Wonderful!  😄



  • Ok, with this rule in mind, can you please clarify the following situation:

    Example:

    Japan has 3 Subs, a CV, and 2 Fighters in a sea zone. The US player attacks with 4 Fighters of his own. The US player scores 3 hits so the Japanese player must select the CV and the 2 Fighters as casualties (because according to the above, aircraft without a DD present cannot hit subs). Ok that makes sense. BUT, now lets assume the US player sends a DD into the same fight. Does that really mean that the Japanese player can now apply the Fighter hits to the subs instead of the CV/Fighters because the destroyer’s presence allows it? If so, that makes it a DISADVANTAGE to bring to the extra piece along.

    Is that really the way this situation works out or am I missing something?

    Thanks!


  • Official Answers

    Yes, that’s the way it works.  There are some situations in which it may be a disadvantage to have a destroyer.  It depends upon what you’re trying to accomplish.



  • Aircraft can attack subs - any unit can.  BUT, subs can submerge in lieu of firing - and they fire before air units (and all other non sub units).  So if plane (or any units) attack a sub, that sub can submerge before the battle starts (unless an enemy sub is present).


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    does this last post sum up the rule?

    Id like to add it to my files but since its something not included specifically in the discovered Snafu with the rules I cant tell.


  • Official Answers

    Air unit hits cannot be assigned to subs unless there is a destroyer friendly to the air units in the battle.  This is not exactly clear in the rules, but it will be in the FAQ.



  • I thought the new rule was designed so Aircraft could not kill subs by themselves. 
    The defending player should allways be able to choose subs instead of other surface ships in a mixed fleet if they do not submerge.


  • Official Answers

    @jeffdestroyer:

    The defending player should allways be able to choose subs instead of other surface ships in a mixed fleet if they do not submerge.

    I agree in principle, but that’s not how it works.


  • 2019 2015 '14

    I think submarines are causing way more confusion to rules/gameplay then they are worth.

    My first reaction to the new rule, is that it just seems to make submarines an even more marginal unit than they were before. The inability to take hits on submarines that are part of a fleet (from attacking enemy air), makes airpower even more significant than it was in Revised, since now you can just trade fighters for capital ships.

    For submarines to be relevant to the gameplay, they should really be designed to inflict economic damage. As a combat unit they’re pretty underwhelming.



  • From an tactic point of view this rule is better, if we consider it together with the new transport status.
    Surface fleets and submarines did not operate togheter during ww2. So having the sub (and the TRNs) as cannon fodder for surface battle is not historically correct, is not tactically correct and even from a gaming point of view it hampered war on the seas.

    In this game the real backbone of the fleet is the DD, that should be built in good numbers.

    It is true that a fleet with AC and submarines as cannon fodder could suffer grievous losses to air power… but also a fleet with a lone DD if attacked by a bunch of subs (that cost 6 i.e 4 IPC less than a fighter) could be wiped away leaving fighters (immune to subs fire…) to look for a place for landing.

    So I agree that it is possible to use air power for trading with capital ships (right what happens in the real war, the aircraft pilots are trained to attack valuable target not useless TRN or SUBS… imagine the battle of Midway and USA Dauntless pilots sunking four submarine instead of four AC…) but also subs may be used for trading with any kind of target that is not an aircraft, i.e. DD, CA, AC and BB. I see a paper-scissors-stone pattern in that.



  • I guess in the end, it will create different opportunities. 
    You may not want to send a DD into the battle in order to focus on more important capital ships.



  • I havent bought the game my self jet, but if this rule is unclear it is extremly stupid.

    Lets say Japan has 2 carriers with 4 fighters on board and US attacks that fleet with 3 submarines!

    1. Neither of the 4 fighters onboard the carriers can strike the submarines since there is no destroyers presents, only the 2 carriers may defend them selfs. And only the carriers may be taken as cassulties. The subs get opening fire.

    2. The fighters cannot ATTACK, but they can defend???

    3. The submarines can submerge before the battle begins, and nothing happens.

    4. Fighters submerge after their first opening shots…


    I think its number 1 which definitivly is most fun. It makes having a destroyer deadly important
    when it comes to defending a fleet.



  • All evidence points to number one being the correct  😉


  • Official Answers

    @Greand:

    1. Neither of the 4 fighters onboard the carriers can strike the submarines since there is no destroyers presents, only the 2 carriers may defend them selfs. And only the carriers may be taken as cassulties. The subs get opening fire.

    Correct.

    @Greand:

    1. The fighters cannot ATTACK, but they can defend???

    Incorrect.  They can do neither.

    @Greand:

    1. The submarines can submerge before the battle begins, and nothing happens.

    Correct.

    @Greand:

    1. Fighters submerge after their first opening shots…

    Incorrect.  Fighters can’t submerge.  😛  Subs can submerge or fire - they can’t do both in the same combat round.



  • Rules for the DD state that a fig can attack if it is present. 
    It does not say that Fig can not defend.

    Fig either defend or option #1 above is correct.


  • Official Answers

    Air unit hits, whether attacking or defending, cannot be assigned to subs unless there is a destroyer friendly to the air units in the battle.  This is not exactly clear in the rules, but it will be in the FAQ.



  • Ahh. so in naval battles with air and subs, air units must be rolled seperately from naval units? This isnt in the rules either, but a logical conclusion from this thread. How else so you know what are air unit hits or not. On the converse, a DD present allows air to hit subs, but not vice versa. So if a DD is present, then subs must now roll seperately from other naval units. Well, i guess they are the only unit that defends at 1, so this is a mute point on defense, but on offense, it an annoyance. This is complicated!!



  • When i play this with my borther for the first time, I can see an arguement ensue when i try to explain all of this to him, and it is not clearly stated in the rulebook. ahh well!!



  • @AxisOfEvil:

    Ahh. so in naval battles with air and subs, air units must be rolled seperately from naval units? This isnt in the rules either, but a logical conclusion from this thread. How else so you know what are air unit hits or not. On the converse, a DD present allows air to hit subs, but not vice versa. So if a DD is present, then subs must now roll seperately from other naval units. Well, i guess they are the only unit that defends at 1, so this is a mute point on defense, but on offense, it an annoyance. This is complicated!!

    -) if no DD is present, subs anyway hit during surprise strike, so then you roll for them seperately anyway.
    -) if a DD is present, you just need to remember how many hits you had with subs. as the amount of sub hits equals the amount of naval units you have to pick as casualties.
    -) if there are air units, but NO DD, you have to roll air units seperately, so you know how many surface warships are subject to be removed from the game.



  • Since when did the submerge feature become manditory? This sounds like a house rule waiting to happen. I think this rule is so confusing to people b/c the defender has never NOT had the option to use a piece as fodder.


  • Official Answers

    Submerging is not mandatory.  Air unit hits simply cannot be assigned to subs unless there is a destroyer.  This works in exactly the same way as the rule that sub hits can’t be applied to air units, except there’s a condition attached (the destroyer).  Sea units can still hit subs if there is no destroyer, unless the sub chooses to submerge.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

32
Online

13.7k
Users

34.1k
Topics

1.3m
Posts