The end of the world

As for the justification for killing, I really don’t see any reason that justifies it. Self defense is the only real reason for doing so without being subjected to criminal procedings. This really splits into 3 areas: defensive war (as in against the Nazi’s); personal self-defense in which deadly force is the last resort in preserving your own; and lastly, capital punishment to protect society against real proven predators. This may seem like just the same as the other post and perhaps I’m just uncomfortable with the word “justification”. Unnatural death is always a bad thing even for the best of reasons. I question anyone’s ethics who is happy when someone dies no matter who well they deserved it. I’m sure few Americans worried little about justice after 9/11. Face it, we’re out for revenge. Hitler needed to die to save civilization. I’d feel it would be my duty to pull that trigger with Bin Laden in my sites. How do you feel after he drops? Relieved, probably. Euphoric, hopefully not. Something that had to be done. Something you have to live with, but so will his potential victims that are safer. Duty to one’s self, country, civilization. Unnatural death is bad, but as above, reluctantly necessary…

@F_alk:

@cystic:

dIfrenT - Jesus said nothing about war - i don’t even think that Christians are supposed to be involved in a war. I believe that ultimately God will forgive us for killing people, but we’re not supposed to do it period

But you admit the OT did allow killing…

well, of course. But the OT had much in it that the NT does not. The NT introduced a new age into civilization (or at least it was to) - from a primitive tribes-people wandering around with hope as their animal sacrifices and works-righteousness to a “anyone can get into heaven if you believe that you can get there under the following premise”. With this new premise it removed all reason for killing - why would i kill someone when its well possible for me to meet them in heaven? And if they are not going to heaven, then am i not removing that chance from them by killing them? (please don’t use this against me . . . it’s too simple and hastily thought up, i know)

F_alk - with regards to “updates” - The OT was one law - established to establish “God’s people”. The NT introduced a new law, and showed that there was more under heaven that we did not know about. An update can’t say - “oh yeah - about God appearing in 3 - well, we were just tricking you - there is no “Holy Spirit” or “God the Father” - the only face that God has is “the Son””

Well, you do not allow the updates to contradict themselves in the number of gods, in the sense that taking some away is not allowed.
But: Killing was allowed and then banished… if whoever changes its mind on that, why not on the “number of gods”/prophets?
I mean, the third update (according to muslims AFAIR), was done, because the second one did not have the success it should have had, inlcuding the misinterpretation of JC as “son of god” and not “prophet extraordinaire”.
I see your point… but applying this logic on one fact, but not on others, does not make sense to me.

well, i mentioned the “killing” thing, as well as the new age. As for number of prophets, well, that’s a tough one. It’s really hard to assess if one is a true prophet of God before the fact. Guys like Billy Grahem and James Dobson, we allow for as they appear to walk their talk and are VERY biblically based. With number of Gods - well, nothing has really changed here. We are to worship only “God” (Jehovah/Yahweh) and worship no other gods but the one God. At the same time, there is mention in the OT of a different aspect of God (Daniel - “the son of Man”, also references to Malchezedik - Emugod? Any comments about him?), as well as references to “the Spirit of the Lord”. These are all in the OT as well as in the NT - showing different aspects to the “Godhood” while still being true to the One God concept.
With regards to the post-300 ad success of the bible - i don’t truly believe that it was to be a “success”. This isn’t a tv show, but an impossible life. Christianity was never to become popular (i don’t believe) which is why we had many centuries of perversion of Biblical principals in the name of “the Church”. For all i know Islam began the same way that the JW’s began . . . .

1. Christianity is not logical unless you view it as a Christian. I don’t care if you find it logical or not - completely beside the issue. It is a greater knowledge that works outside and beyond the confines you work in to consider things logical.

It’s easy to call a greater knowledge something no one use for the advancement of knowledge, no one saw, and when it’s perfectly illogical. You can speak to yourself 20, 25, 40 years, it will not make it greater knowledge. And don’t you think those who kill jews does not believe they speak to god ? So they are fool, they speak to themself, but not you ? I see only 3 options…

1. You are all fanatic, speaking to themself, without the start of a logical argument.
2. You speak to “god”, they speak to themself.
3. God has two face, he’s “good” and “evil”.

Also, if it’s “beyond” my logic, you’ll have to admit it’s still looking like the story we tell to children. Maybe the tooth fairy is also “beyond” our understanding, manipulating us like puppets on her large battle against the evil black tooth.

2. One must differentiate for themselves what good and evil is. And i will presume that i know what’s good for humanity, and that i know what “evil” is - it helps that the bible tells me. I think that irrespective of the fact that some people consider it good to kill people, that doesn’t change my knowledge of what good and evil is, and i don’t believe that one can honestly be a fence-sitter on these issues as you appear to be.

I don’t have any idea what you are talking about with your fence-sitter by the way. And sorry but i am defending what i believe is true.

3. Of course it’s pure faith, but not blind faith. Also i can look at what Hitler was doing to people, ask those who were witness to prison camps/are Polish if they enjoyed what Hitler did to them, and i’ll get a very vivid example of what evil is. As for the fight between good and evil at the end of it all, well, i don’t know exactly how it all will go down, but ultimately good will triumph over evil, God over Satan. Naturally as with all things there is a slim margin that i may be incorrect about this - that i’ll die and become wormfood and that’s it, but i don’t think so.

Faith is’nt always blind ? You believe in a mythology not more logic than any animist, odinist or satanist. And you justify it with a “feeling”, but it’s the end of the questionning ? Yes, it’s blind faith.

Also satan is the “adversary”, what it is… our natural instinct ? science ? logic ? humanism ? These 4 things are hurting your religion, they could easily be the adversary. Look how much religion was powerfull in the middle-age, now, with science and logic, it fade.

Maybe the tooth fairy is also “beyond” our understanding, manipulating us like puppets on her large battle against the evil black tooth

Pure classic! :lol:

@FinsterniS:

1. Christianity is not logical unless you view it as a Christian. I don’t care if you find it logical or not - completely beside the issue. It is a greater knowledge that works outside and beyond the confines you work in to consider things logical.

It’s easy to call a greater knowledge something no one use for the advancement of knowledge, no one saw, and when it’s perfectly illogical. You can speak to yourself 20, 25, 40 years, it will not make it greater knowledge. And don’t you think those who kill jews does not believe they speak to god ? So they are fool, they speak to themself, but not you ? I see only 3 options…

1. You are all fanatic, speaking to themself, without the start of a logical argument.
2. You speak to “god”, they speak to themself.
3. God has two face, he’s “good” and “evil”.

Also, if it’s “beyond” my logic, you’ll have to admit it’s still looking like the story we tell to children. Maybe the tooth fairy is also “beyond” our understanding, manipulating us like puppets on her large battle against the evil black tooth.

you forgot number “4” we’re all different shades of crazy people. That’s fine. And number “5” some speak with God, others are influenced by Satan. That and number “2” make the mose sense to me right now.
As for the “advancement of knowledge” - well, there is great knowledge in Christianity beyond its simple theology and the bible. It just is not meant to advance science, but human behaviour and interaction. The fact that it does not do this so well ALL of the time is no fault of Christianity’s so much as those who fail while practicing it.

2. One must differentiate for themselves what good and evil is. And i will presume that i know what’s good for humanity, and that i know what “evil” is - it helps that the bible tells me. I think that irrespective of the fact that some people consider it good to kill people, that doesn’t change my knowledge of what good and evil is, and i don’t believe that one can honestly be a fence-sitter on these issues as you appear to be.

I don’t have any idea what you are talking about with your fence-sitter by the way. And sorry but i am defending what i believe is true.

Your contention that there is no good or evil - you sit on the fence with these issues. Like millions of others who watch, refusing to condemn evil when its RIGHT THERE, refusing to condone goodness as it may be someone else’s evil. That’s what i am talking about.

Faith is’nt always blind ? You believe in a mythology not more logic than any animist, odinist or satanist. And you justify it with a “feeling”, but it’s the end of the questionning ? Yes, it’s blind faith.

Also satan is the “adversary”, what it is… our natural instinct ? science ? logic ? humanism ? These 4 things are hurting your religion, they could easily be the adversary. Look how much religion was powerfull in the middle-age, now, with science and logic, it fade.

Faith: You’re wrong. You have no idea the struggle that i (and billions of other Christians) have gone through to arrive at what we believe. Add to that the Bible, other experiences with spiritual powers and a relationship with God. These things are not testible, and were never meant to be. That’s fine.
Our natural instinct - something that helps us survive, influenced by satan or God, overall quite handy depending on what it is instinctual for.
Science - beautiful. Well ordered and organized, does not hinder my faith, but i believe it complements it.
Logic - a handy tool. It works some times, but not all the time. You are married, no? You can not convince me that unless she is some kind of robot that logic works in all situations. All i’ve learned from my many relationships - if she’s bitchy, give her food. I don’t understand it, but it works.
Humanism - Christ was the first great humanist. He preached love, caring, helping the poor, doing good things for other people. He preached against laws that tied people up. He loved the world so much he died for it. He taught us to do to others as we’d have done to us. If our enemy does something mean to us, we are to do something kind. Has any one in history acted or taught more humanistic things?
God is not about “historic stable institutions”. It seems that everything you know about religion and Christianity derives from your views about the middle ages church. It’s also been implied that all Christians know about science comes from the same source. Open your eyes my friend. There is much out there that is not meeting them.

@TG:

Maybe the tooth fairy is also “beyond” our understanding, manipulating us like puppets on her large battle against the evil black tooth

Pure classic! :lol:

:lol: again with the tooth fairy

At the same time, there is mention in the OT of a different aspect of God (Daniel - “the son of Man”, also references to Malchezedik - Emugod? Any comments about him?), as well as references to “the Spirit of the Lord”. These are all in the OT as well as in the NT - showing different aspects to the “Godhood” while still being true to the One God concept.

Melchizedek was the only king and priest (at the same time) of the Hebrew nation. He was mentioned again in the NT in reference to Jesus. Jesus is the King and Priest of the Kingdom of Heaven therefore His role is “after the order of Melchisedec.” In the OT it’s spelled Melchi_z_ede_k_, in the NT it’s spelled Melchi_s_ede_c_ due to the writings being in different languages. Melchizedek is mention in Genesis 14:18 and Psalm 110:4 of the OT. And he is mentioned again several times in Hebrews 5, 6, and 7.

you forgot number “4” we’re all different shades of crazy people. That’s fine. And number “5” some speak with God, others are influenced by Satan. That and number “2” make the mose sense to me right now.

haha, so in your mind, the anti-american arab speak with Satan, and they think EXACTLY the same thing of you. It’s quite interesting. Even more interesting is the fact both of you base your claim on the same thing, it show how much valor it has.

As for the “advancement of knowledge” - well, there is great knowledge in Christianity beyond its simple theology and the bible. It just is not meant to advance science, but human behaviour and interaction. The fact that it does not do this so well ALL of the time is no fault of Christianity’s so much as those who fail while practicing it.

I agree it’s not christianity’s fault if they were (are) such a problem for science, but don’t complain about angry secular humanist after.

Your contention that there is no good or evil - you sit on the fence with these issues. Like millions of others who watch, refusing to condemn evil when its RIGHT THERE, refusing to condone goodness as it may be someone else’s evil. That’s what i am talking about.

No, No, No, i’m an humanist, i’am against capital punishment, against killing/war, against explotation. I condone what i think is primitive and againts the developpement of science and humanity, i am for scientific and social evolution. But i will never use a black & white vision, it’s always a good reason to make superficial jugement, without thinking, it’s just “evil”, final. Nothing is as black and white.

Faith: You’re wrong. You have no idea the struggle that i (and billions of other Christians) have gone through to arrive at what we believe. Add to that the Bible, other experiences with spiritual powers and a relationship with God. These things are not testible, and were never meant to be. That’s fine.

It’s blind as you believe in something without any reason. And other peoples that are not doing like you (for exemple my cliché about anti-american arab) are just “wrong”, you have just no reason to say that, you just don’t accept they could be right as much as you are; i call that blind faith.

Science - beautiful. Well ordered and organized, does not hinder my faith, but i believe it complements it.

You forget all the blow it give to religion; Lamarck, Freud, Gallilea. From a purely statistical point of view christianism is fading, in part because of science, in part because of his dogmas. Also you forget that Satan, the adversary, can be interpet in lots of ways. Secular humanist, communist, atheist; they are all adversary of christianism, so we are “satan” ? Will you need to destroy us ? I’m maybe a little acid and direct, i am still not “evil”.

Logic - a handy tool. It works some times, but not all the time. You are married, no? You can not convince me that unless she is some kind of robot that logic works in all situations. All i’ve learned from my many relationships - if she’s bitchy, give her food. I don’t understand it, but it works.

hahaha, right, i’m married, and logic does not always work out you’re right (and it’s even dangerous on PMS), and for complexity; even the hardest integral does not match a woman (we still spend most of our time thinking about them)

I know logic is not perfect, but “god” is a philosophical question, that need the use of logic, we need to make critic, not to believe in the closest myth. Dogmas are not making thing advande, constructive critics is.

Humanism - Christ was the first great humanist. He preached love, caring, helping the poor, doing good things for other people. He preached against laws that tied people up. He loved the world so much he died for it. He taught us to do to others as we’d have done to us. If our enemy does something mean to us, we are to do something kind. Has any one in history acted or taught more humanistic things?

Lots of people are dying for what they believe in. Anyway he “said” himself he was here to bring fire and division. It does not enter in my definition of “humanism”. Socrate is the first humanist for me. He never menace nobody, never kill, he just question everything, he want developpement, mouvement, and as you seem to care for those who die for what they believe in; Socrate did. And if you read the Republic of Plato, you’ll know another humanist.

@F_alk:

@FinsterniS:

Logic - a handy tool. It works some times, but not all the time. You are married, no? You can not convince me that unless she is some kind of robot that logic works in all situations. All i’ve learned from my many relationships - if she’s bitchy, give her food. I don’t understand it, but it works.

hahaha, right, i’m married, and logic does not always work out you’re right (and it’s even dangerous on PMS), and for complexity; even the hardest integral does not match a woman (we still spend most of our time thinking about them)

To get back to topic:
Do you think if all women on earth ‘suffered’ PMS at the same time …
would that be the end of the world? :lol: ;) ;)

not if men are smart. (although not married, i have an extensive text-booklike dating history). If a woman has PMS and YOU CAN TELL (i.e. irritible, trying to kill you with knives, vacuum implements, etc.) she needs:

1. ibuprofen, or another non-steroidal anti-inflammatory
2. to be told that she is beautiful - be creative here . . . there’s no such thing as a lie under these circumstances.
3. food - make sure she is well fed
4. depending on the woman a tummy rub can go a long way.

• stay away from words like “fat” “swollen” “bitch” “whine” - you get the idea. It really is not that hard to take a woman who is having a visit from her aunt Flo from nasty crazy lady to friendly snogging partner inside of 30 minutes.

basically, yeah. just leave us alone for anywhere up to 24 hours, everything should be fine. :)

If a woman has PMS and YOU CAN TELL (i.e. irritible, trying to kill you with knives, vacuum implements, etc.) she needs:

Yah, and never let her teach a class of disruptive students! :wink:

i doubt that most of the students would ever be disruptive again. :D

haha, those were the good ol’ days. :)