The end of the world

@EmuGod:

@difernT:

i believe the Bible tells about this,yes. and i believe it literally too, unless it says otherwise. but you are taking this from the Old Testament. key word: Old. God was dealing with the Hebrews then in a system based on the deeds they did. He was trying to show them how they could not live up to His standards on their own. that’s why Moses was given those laws. God does not ask us to kill in His name. He asked Christians to go out and show others the mercy He has shown us. We haven’t done as well as we should with that. In short, no i would not kill in the name of God. If you define “pagan” as anything outside of Christianity (the kind that says Jesus died on a cross and rose again in 3 days, and He is the only way to salvation), then yes the Muslims are pagans. i’m not sure about the Jews. God has always had His own way of dealing with them, and since i don’t know how He thinks, i don’t know for sure whether the Jewish belief system is valid or not. i would not go after Hussein for religious reasons. if he was attacking America, sure i would want to defend my country, but i would never harm someone just because he/she doesn’t share my beliefs.

That’s an interesting spin you put on why God gave the laws to Moses. I personally disagree. I don’t think dietary laws, modesty laws etc. are to show the Jews that they cannot live up to God’s standards. I think it is to set a new standard. I, speaking personally as a Jew, cannot do many of the things that you can do, a simple example being to charge interest to a fellow Jew. Such laws that are set to improve relations between people are at a higher standard, in my opinion. I think that the Jewish laws for dealing with other Jews are a light to the other nations so to speak. Not charging interest from a friend, though it may seem weird, promotes a lifestyle of peace and better relations. I don’t think the Crusades or missionary work really do that. They bring about more strife. the laws given to the Jews I think bring up a new standard that is closer to God. They help tocreate an atmosphere of peace, which our world really could use.

Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.

Well EG, although i agree with you about the laws setting a new standard. Old Testament laws (IMHO) were designed to keep the Jews separate from others and in covenant with God. They were meant to help the Jews live in harmony and righteousness with God, and at the same time to help the Jews live in harmony with each other.
Jesus shook things up quite a bit. He gave us a nearly impossible set of laws. Rather than focussing on our actions, our thoughts and words entered the equation as well. Now it was not enough to simply not kill someone (you have heard it said an eye for an eye) but to “turn the other cheek”, “love those who hate you” “pray for those who persecute you” etc. This does not mean that Moses and the OT Jews were wrong to apply the “eye for an eye” rule as that was considered a just law, and to prevent people from dying b/c of revenge killings.
w.r.t. Jews not charging interest of friends - Jesus said that anyone can love your friends - its loving your enemies that is not only tough, but commanded. “if you are sued for your shirt, give your coat as well.” Commandments from bizaar-o-land, for sure, but ones that are supposed to set Christians apart from everyone, even Jews. Too bad so many Christians suck at these (myself included). It’s something i have to remind myself of constantly, and even that doesn’t work too well . . . .

First of all, for your love your enemies claim that keeps the Christians separate, the Jews would sacrifice for each nation of the ancient world every year at the temple in case god was angry with them, so that he would forgive them. An “eye for an eye” is not literal, it’s to be taken figuratively. The concept of capital punishment is in Judaism, but no one in all of Jewish History, which is quite a few years, has ever gotten it. The Jewish courts work in a completely different way from the general courts.

As for Jesus’ message, Jesus said that people did not have to follow anything but be “good” people. Jesus’ definition of good implied that his followers would not have to follow any rituals and such laws as ythe ones you mentioned are impossible to follow. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” is impossible for a human being to follow. Jesus took this ideal from Judaism but reversed it. Judaism’s is “Do not do unto tohers what you would not have others do unto you” which people can do. Christianity offered a very hard life to live when attempting to follow Jesus’ teachings for the early Christians, which is my guess as to why almsot if not everything he said was thrown out.

That’s an interesting spin you put on why God gave the laws to Moses

Gave laws to me? That’s a new one… :roll:

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.

do i really usually apply christian ideals to your arguements? I mean, i try not to, but being raised in a mainly christian country and all, it would not suprise me totally.

Ya, you do quite often but I’m not surprised considering the propoganda and stereotypes and lack of information about Judaism and Jews. I once had a Roman Catholic ask me if I went to church every Sunday, even though Jews don’t celebrate Sunday as the day of rest. I have a friend who met a Christian family who wouldn’t believe he was Jewish because he didn’t have devil horns and didn’t worship satan. They refused to believe that what they had learned about Jews was wrong. Another one of my friends told me that he once knew a chef that asked him if Jews really drink the blood of Christian children. It’s very sad - all the misinformation.

@EmuGod:

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.

do i really usually apply christian ideals to your arguements? I mean, i try not to, but being raised in a mainly christian country and all, it would not suprise me totally.

Ya, you do quite often but I’m not surprised considering the propoganda and stereotypes and lack of information about Judaism and Jews. I once had a Roman Catholic ask me if I went to church every Sunday, even though Jews don’t celebrate Sunday as the day of rest. I have a friend who met a Christian family who wouldn’t believe he was Jewish because he didn’t have devil horns and didn’t worship satan. They refused to believe that what they had learned about Jews was wrong. Another one of my friends told me that he once knew a chef that asked him if Jews really drink the blood of Christian children. It’s very sad - all the misinformation.

You have some stange friends yo.
Do Jews drink the blood of Christian children???
Yes, all Jews are really vampires.

So, when i die (and go to heaven or hell or whereever), i have chosen? What about all those poor bastards who died without ever having heard of christianity? Will they all fight for evil in the last battle then?

unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.

So you believe God gave an update (from Judaism to Christianity), but you don’t believe he gave a second update (from Christianity to Islam), right?
How can you tell that the one update was right, and the second wasn’t one?

the “update” is from the Old Testament to the New Testament, and it did not actually occur until Christ’s death and resurrection. i know this one is right because the two agree with each other. Christ quoted much of the Old Testament. i don’t believe that islam is an update because it does not agree with the Old Testament.

You would kill not in the name of god?
And are you so sure that muslims don’t acknowledge that JC died on a cross and came back from the dead? Ever talked to a muslim about that??

it’s in their holy book. Jesus was only a prophet, a good teacher. and prophets don’t rise from the dead. Mohammed came after him to “update” the religion, but i, obviously, don’t believe this.
no, i wouldn’t kill in the name of God because that’s not what He taught.

But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…

i don’t agree. that particular quote is taken out of context from the rest of the passage (Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount). every one of the situations Jesus cited was a personal disagreement. attacks on my country are not strictly personal. the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) But in Ecclesiastes 3:3 it says, “A time to kill, and a time to heal…” Contradictory? Seemingly. But in Matthew 5:21 He cites the verse in Exodus, then explains it in Matthew 5:22 He says, “…whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause [emphasis mine] shall be in danger of the judgment…” and 1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer…” to make a long story short, the “slap in the face” deals with personal/private disagreements. thou shalt not kill refers to hating someone, or being angry at someone without a reason. both of those are equated with murder. and note, in Exodus, God tells them not to kill, but later He tells them to take cities and stuff. it goes back to anger/hate without cause.
check it out for yourself, make sure i’m not taking verses out of context. i’m not being facetious, i mean it.

@dIfrenT:

So, when i die (and go to heaven or hell or whereever), i have chosen? What about all those poor bastards who died without ever having heard of christianity? Will they all fight for evil in the last battle then?

unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.

So you believe God gave an update (from Judaism to Christianity), but you don’t believe he gave a second update (from Christianity to Islam), right?
How can you tell that the one update was right, and the second wasn’t one?

the “update” is from the Old Testament to the New Testament, and it did not actually occur until Christ’s death and resurrection. i know this one is right because the two agree with each other. Christ quoted much of the Old Testament. i don’t believe that islam is an update because it does not agree with the Old Testament.

You would kill not in the name of god?
And are you so sure that muslims don’t acknowledge that JC died on a cross and came back from the dead? Ever talked to a muslim about that??

it’s in their holy book. Jesus was only a prophet, a good teacher. and prophets don’t rise from the dead. Mohammed came after him to “update” the religion, but i, obviously, don’t believe this.
no, i wouldn’t kill in the name of God because that’s not what He taught.

But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…

i don’t agree. that particular quote is taken out of context from the rest of the passage (Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount). every one of the situations Jesus cited was a personal disagreement. attacks on my country are not strictly personal. the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) But in Ecclesiastes 3:3 it says, “A time to kill, and a time to heal…” Contradictory? Seemingly. But in Matthew 5:21 He cites the verse in Exodus, then explains it in Matthew 5:22 He says, “…whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause [emphasis mine] shall be in danger of the judgment…” and 1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer…” to make a long story short, the “slap in the face” deals with personal/private disagreements. thou shalt not kill refers to hating someone, or being angry at someone without a reason. both of those are equated with murder. and note, in Exodus, God tells them not to kill, but later He tells them to take cities and stuff. it goes back to anger/hate without cause.
check it out for yourself, make sure i’m not taking verses out of context. i’m not being facetious, i mean it.

Why should I go to hell for not being a Christian? I worship God as do many other Jews and Muslims do too. Just because they dont accept Jesus, doesn’t mean they should go to hell. Also, why would people go to hell for not believing in God? Perhaps that’s one of hte major points that our two religions, Judaism and Christianity, disagree on. My religion teaches that the non-Jews do not necessarily go to hell for not believing in God, but they might if they commit horrible crimes against one another such as theft or murder. My religion also teaches that people do not go to hell forever, yet only until their soul is cleansed of their misdeeds, after which they come to heaven. Since when is not believing in Jesus a sin?

As for your references to the Old Testament, please call it the Bible, as some of us here do not believe in the New Testament. About your quote from Exodus, it means “Thou shall not murder”, not “Thou shall not kill” and there is a major difference between murder and killing. Your translation of the quote from Exodus is inacccurate, which changes its meaning completely. As for your second quote from the Bible, it does not contradict the first one. The time for killing could be interpreted as during war-time. In war, you must defend yourself even if that means killing.

@dIfrenT:

But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…

i don’t agree. that particular quote is taken out of context from the rest of the passage (Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount). every one of the situations Jesus cited was a personal disagreement. attacks on my country are not strictly personal. the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) But in Ecclesiastes 3:3 it says, “A time to kill, and a time to heal…” Contradictory? Seemingly. But in Matthew 5:21 He cites the verse in Exodus, then explains it in Matthew 5:22 He says, “…whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause [emphasis mine] shall be in danger of the judgment…” and 1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer…” to make a long story short, the “slap in the face” deals with personal/private disagreements. thou shalt not kill refers to hating someone, or being angry at someone without a reason. both of those are equated with murder. and note, in Exodus, God tells them not to kill, but later He tells them to take cities and stuff. it goes back to anger/hate without cause.
check it out for yourself, make sure i’m not taking verses out of context. i’m not being facetious, i mean it.

i have to disagree with you here. I think that you’re going to unreasonable lengths to make the war-hawkish “christians” look right when they’re not. Under no circumstances are Christians told to kill, or even attack someone (word or deed). Christianity is an extreme religion - mainstream Christianity is not.

unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.

Ha, in my religion everybody goes to the “heaven” they want to be (atheist and other religions are welcome alike)… end of story… Why must there be this ultimate fight between good an evil? Both sides lose… just one side more. Am I the only one that finds this “Last Battle” a bit anachronistic?

@TG:

unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.

Ha, in my religion everybody goes to the “heaven” they want to be (atheist and other religions are welcome alike)… end of story… Why must there be this ultimate fight between good an evil? Both sides lose… just one side more. Am I the only one that finds this “Last Battle” a bit anachronistic?

regardless of whether you find an idea or event to be anachronistic does not determine whether it is to be played out.
And there must ultimately be a fight between good and evil. There will come a point when they can not be in the same universe at the same time.
And no. One side will win. That’s pre-determined.

I never honestly thought much of that section of the Bible… :(
What happens, happens. Until then, the only way for evil to win is for good men to stand around and do nothing. We best live our lives with only caring and happiness. ^^ That will do more to win some war then any amount of pondering… @@;;

And there must ultimately be a fight between good and evil. There will come a point when they can not be in the same universe at the same time.
And no. One side will win. That’s pre-determined.

woooooooooooo, what’s that, christian logic ? Sorry but i find the idea very funny, you never read anything about ethic or about history ? I mean, the concept of “good” and “evil” lack so much nuance, it’s so subjective, you think a guy killing an american is “evil”, while some believe it’s “good”, and in the end, nobody have anything to support there claim, i think it’s a barbarious act, but i don’t use concept like “good” and “evil”, i don’t need the support of a god to live, nor to caution my belief. I believe in humanity developpement, in everyone having somethign to wear, to eat and to learn, i don’t say it’s “good”, i don’t have the presumption to know what’s good for humanity, i just try to do my best.

Hitler think he was fighting evil. And you can try very hard, you can say he was wrong, you do not have anything to support your version of “evil”, just pure, blind, faith. Not that i think we should relativise murder, i just think you cannot fight for “good” of “evil”, and when we look deep into think, they are never as Black or White as some might wish they were.

As for your second quote from the Bible, it does not contradict the first one. The time for killing could be interpreted as during war-time. In war, you must defend yourself even if that means killing.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear on this. That’s exactly what I was trying to say in my post. And I was pointing out that to some people, the passage may seem contradictory. War-time is what I was talking about, but maybe I should have said this specifically. I’ve thought this through because I am considering a career in the U.S. Air Force.

As for your references to the Old Testament, please call it the Bible, as some of us here do not believe in the New Testament.

I do believe in the New Testament, obviously, and since I believe that it’s part of the Bible, I have to differentiate when I talk about it. I’m sorry it offends you, but the people on this forum are bound to have their differences. Quite frankly, I can’t see any way around it.

Why should I go to hell for not being a Christian? I worship God as do many other Jews and Muslims do too. Just because they dont accept Jesus, doesn’t mean they should go to hell. Also, why would people go to hell for not believing in God? Perhaps that’s one of hte major points that our two religions, Judaism and Christianity, disagree on. My religion teaches that the non-Jews do not necessarily go to hell for not believing in God, but they might if they commit horrible crimes against one another such as theft or murder. My religion also teaches that people do not go to hell forever, yet only until their soul is cleansed of their misdeeds, after which they come to heaven. Since when is not believing in Jesus a sin?

Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Jesus is the only Way to Heaven. You cannot reject Him and expect to get there. People go to hell for not believing in God because of sin. God won’t tolerate sin, and that’s why Jesus came to pay the punishment for us. And hell is forever. It’s written so many times in the Bible (Old and New Testament).

i have to disagree with you here. I think that you’re going to unreasonable lengths to make the war-hawkish “christians” look right when they’re not. Under no circumstances are Christians told to kill, or even attack someone (word or deed).

I’m not trying to justify “war-hawkish ‘christians.’” Again, my point for my post is that killing in war-time is not un-Christian. I’m not trying to justify murder. I was just trying to correct the interpretation of a verse that is commonly taken out of context.

So, killing out of cold blood (without being angry or hate) is different from a hot-blooded killing… and what qualifiers for a reason to kill? AFAIR being homosexual is enough reason to be killed.
So… if all the “non-killing” refers to personal affairs, but homosexuals can be killed on sight, then sexuality is not a personal affair…
What do you prefer to do in bed? You can tell me, it is nothing personal, but of interest for the whole community, and maybe you have to be killed for whatever you say now. If you don’t answer, then -of course- i must assume that you defy the needs and laws of the community…

i’m sorry. i was assuming that most, if not all, of murders stemmed from some sort of anger or hate. the “qualifier”: killing is only justified in war-time or self-defense (i.e., when someone is coming after you with a knife, gun, or some clear intent to kill). Being homosexual is not a good reason to kill. There’s no justification for it. I don’t agree with the lifestyle, but I would not murder someone because of it. That usually comes from hate. These cases are personal, they’re not on a national level. No matter how much they try to say it’s for the community, it comes from their own problems.
Now I feel like I’m repeating myself, and I’m tired of it. Bottomline, only reasons for killing: war-time and self-defense. The verse that is taken out of context deals with problems that boil down to personal affairs. Even personal issues with anyone who doesn’t believe the same as they do, no matter how much they try to say otherwise. I don’t know how else to say it, but you’ll try to twist my words however you want no matter what I say.

Well, i am sorry. I believe what i learnt from talking with muslims: JC is a special prophet, because he will come back to lead the armies of god in the last battle. This unique feature makes him one of the most important prophets in Islam.

thanks for telling me. i didn’t know that. however, they still don’t believe that He is God, so their religion is not a second update.

It is funny, that you claim that. Some of our jewish members claim that Islam is based on Judaism only, any you claim directly the opposite.

i believe that there are similarities because both Israelites and Arabs (the main followers of Islam) both trace their lineage back to Abraham. there are bound to be likenesses.

@FinsterniS:

And there must ultimately be a fight between good and evil. There will come a point when they can not be in the same universe at the same time.
And no. One side will win. That’s pre-determined.

woooooooooooo, what’s that, christian logic ? Sorry but i find the idea very funny, you never read anything about ethic or about history ? I mean, the concept of “good” and “evil” lack so much nuance, it’s so subjective, you think a guy killing an american is “evil”, while some believe it’s “good”, and in the end, nobody have anything to support there claim, i think it’s a barbarious act, but i don’t use concept like “good” and “evil”, i don’t need the support of a god to live, nor to caution my belief. I believe in humanity developpement, in everyone having somethign to wear, to eat and to learn, i don’t say it’s “good”, i don’t have the presumption to know what’s good for humanity, i just try to do my best.

Hitler think he was fighting evil. And you can try very hard, you can say he was wrong, you do not have anything to support your version of “evil”, just pure, blind, faith. Not that i think we should relativise murder, i just think you cannot fight for “good” of “evil”, and when we look deep into think, they are never as Black or White as some might wish they were.

1. Christianity is not logical unless you view it as a Christian. I don’t care if you find it logical or not - completely beside the issue. It is a greater knowledge that works outside and beyond the confines you work in to consider things logical
2. One must differentiate for themselves what good and evil is. And i will presume that i know what’s good for humanity, and that i know what “evil” is - it helps that the bible tells me. I think that irrespective of the fact that some people consider it good to kill people, that doesn’t change my knowledge of what good and evil is, and i don’t believe that one can honestly be a fence-sitter on these issues as you appear to be.
3. Of course it’s pure faith, but not blind faith. Also i can look at what Hitler was doing to people, ask those who were witness to prison camps/are Polish if they enjoyed what Hitler did to them, and i’ll get a very vivid example of what evil is. As for the fight between good and evil at the end of it all, well, i don’t know exactly how it all will go down, but ultimately good will triumph over evil, God over Satan. Naturally as with all things there is a slim margin that i may be incorrect about this - that i’ll die and become wormfood and that’s it, but i don’t think so.

dIfrenT - Jesus said nothing about war - i don’t even think that Christians are supposed to be involved in a war. I believe that ultimately God will forgive us for killing people, but we’re not supposed to do it period. Heaven has no use for geo-political boundaries on earth - they’re just lines in the sand that will be ultimately swept away anyways.

F_alk - with regards to “updates” - The OT was one law - established to establish “God’s people”. The NT introduced a new law, and showed that there was more under heaven that we did not know about. An update can’t say - “oh yeah - about God appearing in 3 - well, we were just tricking you - there is no “Holy Spirit” or “God the Father” - the only face that God has is “the Son”” - it’s kind of like us having three conversations. The first one i talk about My oldest sister. You work under the assumption that that’s all i have. Our next conversation i talk about my other two sisters as well - “a ha! he has THREE sisters” you think to yourself. Our third conversation i’m not going to say “oh, i don’t really have 3 sisters - just the one”.

The triumph of the final battle of Good over Evil is too linear and vague a concept to have any real bearing on humanity. Unless this means humans are extinct (Good is victorious ?!?!?). If humans exist there will certainly be good AND evil, the plague of the intelligent species. There’s always going to be someone out there that will kill you for a cause, your possessions, revenge, war, etc., etc…