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Starting income vs. 1941 set up


  • '10

    Like johnbarbarossa I printed out bluestrokes map and use the set up we disussed in equal-named forum.

    After the first round of play the thing was clear. The axis have a big disadvantage.

    The germans crushed 2/3 of the UK atlantik forces and took control over the baltic states, east poland and ukraine and get the 10 IPC bonus. But there was not enough infantry. Poland and Bulgarie were empty, north-west-europe too, to cover france.

    The russians buyed two tanks, two artilleries and four infantries and were able to stabilize the eastern front with attacks on baltic states and ukraine.

    The japs conquered the philipines, solomon island, borneo ant kwangtung to get the 10 IPC bonus. But there is only a thin line of jap infantry in asia covered by a few planes. The few warships spread out to cover the vulnerable transports. They buildt a IC in Manchuria, the only way to figth the russians and chinese. Two IPCc were leftover in turn 1. No producion of ground forces and ships. I looked on the board and think by myself: “That’s all?”

    UK buildt an IC in India, crushed german naval forces in the atlantik and the baltic sea. One transport survived the german attack. Another one was buildt with an cruiser and a detroyer - all meeting in SZ 6.
    I recognized: India was real safe! No threat by the japs. The italians will not attack egypt with this UK DD in SD 15. I had a lot of time and an income of 38. Nearly the same germany earned with the bonuses.

    Italy sunk the DD in SZ 15. An amphibious landing in trans jordan failed, so they get only the 5 IPC bonus. To protect the newly build transport they were not able to secure the gibraltar SZ and gibraltar, the germans took in their turn with 1 inf.

    USA build a BB, a trans and inf, art in WUS, concentrating their fleet in the solomon island SZ. The US forces hunt down  the last german sub in SZ 9 and retook gibraltar. They landed one figther in Australia to cover it from jap attack.
    The chinese pushed 3 infantries in the front countries.

    Fazit:

    Ger:Not enough infantry in germany, scandinava could not be reinforced, how to beat the russians and keep of UK?
    Russia: Income of 27 - 28 in game turn one. Fantastic!
    Japan: How to secure the whole bunch of Islands? How to beat chinese and russians and avoid UK tank attacks from india?
    Shit - I need ships!!
    UK: Super - I’ve got the choice: Amphibious landings in Scandinavia - Poland - north-west europe for free. My tanks will crush those rice-eaters in thailand. Let’s see how the italians will kill my egypt forces. LOL.
    Italy: Gibraltar? Egypt? Trans Jordan? That is the question.
    USA: Why not build a few subs to hunt down the few Jap ships. Next step in game turn 3: Philipines. Let the bonus rain set in!

    What I want to say is, that there is something wrong with the starting incomes or the set up we saw on the pictures and discuss in this forum.
    **I think the axis strating income must be  10 - 15 IPC higher for each power then the combined income on the map.

    …or the setup we discussed and saw on the pictures is real bullsxxx!**

    Any comments? :?



  • I don’t think your strategies for the Axis were that good. It’s quite possible to take and hold India and Karelia within two turns and then you have a nice position. Germany and Japan will be in the 50-55 IPCs income area and be very strong in a few turns time. We actually found that the Axis were too strong and in the discussion thread “the real setup” and “Playtest report and conclusions” most people cry out for more China infantry and more US and UK ships in the Pacific. This is probably the case, but we’ll see when the game comes out.


  • '10

    @Lynxes:

    I don’t think your strategies for the Axis were that good. It’s quite possible to take and hold India and Karelia within two turns and then you have a nice position. Germany and Japan will be in the 50-55 IPCs income area and be very strong in a few turns time. We actually found that the Axis were too strong and in the discussion thread “the real setup” and “Playtest report and conclusions” most people cry out for more China infantry and more US and UK ships in the Pacific. This is probably the case, but we’ll see when the game comes out.

    Is this playing experiece or theory?

    I played it with additional chinese forces. Additional subs and the stuff we talked about….

    Maybe you can get karelia and this 50 IPC income for germany in turn 3 but the next turn UK is kicking you out of scandinavia or France and Italy should cover the entire middle and southern front vs. the russian? Never!

    An income of 50 IPCs for Japan in turn 3? Ridiculous. If you sent the whole fleet in range  to india you can reach it in turn 2. But already secured by the UK player! What do you get for 17 IPCs: two tanks and two infantries in Japan. You have to produce in Japan and ship it to the continent - in two turns. Meanwhile the rebuild US-Fleet secures the islands in the south pacific. The islands you get the bonuses for…

    By the way… I think “Playtest report and conclusions” is not representative.



  • Is this playing experiece or theory?

    I played it with additional chinese forces. Additional subs and the stuff we talked about….

    Me and Perry are now on our third game with the GENCON pic set-up and in every game the Axis kicks butt. Yes, UK might be able to retake Karelia but then Germany might focus on Caucasus instead and there you have Italy to back you up. India can be taken on turn 2 if you focus your transports and fighters on it. Once Japan takes India or Australia and neutralizes China, it’s a monster IPC-wise.

    If you added forces then yes you do have a different situation. Interesting that the game is so tightly balanced that a few units here and there changes the balance! That’s why it’s so important what the actual set-up is, can’t wait!

    PS. More China inf, UK DD in EMD and additional cruisers in the Pacific I would be very surprised if we don’t see. Submarines in the Pacific I’m not so sure about, I wouldn’t bet on it since only US had a real sub offensive and that started only later in the war so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were zero subs in the Pacific. DS.



  • @marechallannes:

    By the way… I think “Playtest report and conclusions” is not representative.

    Of course it is not representative. The games we played are first time games with new setup, new pieces and new rules. Strategies were not optimal either. This whole game has to evolve first.
    Having said that. The players involved in our test games have a lot of expecience with the games so I still think you can draw (some) conclusions from such an early game.
    For example the conclusion that an Indian Factory by UK can never be sustained. Japan is in a postition to take it at J2 if it really wants. When you think otherwise our conclusions are probably more reliable than yours.

    But before we know anything for sure we need the real setup and lot of testgames by lots of people with that setup.



  • To add to that, putting in an extra DD in SZ15 makes a shitload of difference since Germany is now unable to attack Egypt on G1, making life hard on Italy as you described.

    Of course you have all the liberty of the world to guess the correct setup as we don’t know the whole true one, but this change is so big impact on game balance is very substantial.  😉

    p.s. trust me, if Japan wants, India will fall on J2. Only the Russians can prevent that, but I doubt they can spare the troops.



  • Not to forget than any play testing, even if we know that the gencon setup is not the real one, we cannot judge balance if we use tech, and this fact will also apply when we know the real setup. What’s most interesting, and quantitative, is to play several games both with Nos, and without NOs, but leave tech games out of the discussion of balance. I have played 2 games with the gencon setup without NOs, in both games allies seemed to have a bigger advantage than AAR. We can estimate game balance with the gencon setup, I would like to try a AA50 game using NOs, and the gencon setup just out of curiosity. If someone can host TripleA, I’ll be up for it. I can’t host atm, but I think I can fix it after the weekend.



  • Why NOs yes and tech no? Both are optional, true? I guess radar and repair ICs techs both have some relation with bombers costing 12 and aa guns 6. I’d say you cannot test balance without tech. Please, don’t kill a great tech system only because of old strat bombing fear.



  • @JohnBarbarossa:

    For example the conclusion that an Indian Factory by UK can never be sustained. Japan is in a postition to take it at J2 if it really wants.

    If this is true, it’s a setback from Revised. There a India IC was fully viable unless Japan bid z37 trannie (man, I hate naval bids, and now they will be possible with 6 ipcs)



  • I look forward to play TEH REAL AA50 both with and without NOs. I’m not using tech since Classic, but for those who fancy tech, of course you play with whatever setting makes the game fun. I don’t play with house rules either, as I don’t play F2F, only online games for me.

    As for what we know about the AA50, the official play testers said that game balance cannot be judged if AA50 is played with tech. And we cannot say for sure if the balance if pro axis or pro allies, yet. But nonetheless, we could play lots of games using the gencon setup to atleast get a picture of the game balance when using that setup. And when we get to know the real setup, we will know about balance and strats and such, after we have played the real AA50.

    For me, I’m just as eager to try AA50 using NOs as not using them, just to know what will be most fun, and to learn if there will be any difference in game balance with NOs, as opposed to OOB rules. I’m pretty sure that either axis will get some more units, or higher ipc values than we estimate from the gencon pictures. I don’t played enough games to say for sure, but I’m almost willing to bet money on my statement that either the axis powers will be better off in the real AA50 than the gencon setup, or else axis will need bids to balance the game OOB. And this I say because I haven’t tried playing the gencon setup with NOs yet.

    And to Funcioneta, I would be playing with tech if 99% of all AAR/AA50 players used tech…  😉



  • I think the NOs help balance the game. Italy is honestly about hopeless without the bonuses.


  • '10

    @JohnBarbarossa:

    @marechallannes:

    By the way… I think “Playtest report and conclusions” is not representative.

    Of course it is not representative. The games we played are first time games with new setup, new pieces and new rules. Strategies were not optimal either. This whole game has to evolve first.
    Having said that. The players involved in our test games have a lot of expecience with the games so I still think you can draw (some) conclusions from such an early game.
    For example the conclusion that an Indian Factory by UK can never be sustained. Japan is in a postition to take it at J2 if it really wants. When you think otherwise our conclusions are probably more reliable than yours.

    But before we know anything for sure we need the real setup and lot of testgames by lots of people with that setup.

    One thing about india:
    The Japs goes first. UK is second.

    If the UK player recognizes the jap fleet is sailing direction India. He will build the factory in Australia secured by 2 - 3 US figther planes in turn 1.

    Or the UK player fortifies India with the figther and units from Egypt. Under this conditions the Jap will lost a bunch of figthers wich are the insurance for survive in the pacific area.

    PS: Don’t care about this representative thing.  -  I am a little bit angry about this release date.


  • '10

    @Driel310:

    To add to that, putting in an extra DD in SZ15 makes a shitload of difference since Germany is now unable to attack Egypt on G1, making life hard on Italy as you described.

    Of course you have all the liberty of the world to guess the correct setup as we don’t know the whole true one, but this change is so big impact on game balance is very substantial.  😉

    p.s. trust me, if Japan wants, India will fall on J2. Only the Russians can prevent that, but I doubt they can spare the troops.

    Did you play it with this DD in SZ 15?  When did you take egypt?

    I am not shure to sacrify the german bomber for a landing operation in turn 1…



  • @marechallannes:

    @Driel310:

    To add to that, putting in an extra DD in SZ15 makes a shitload of difference since Germany is now unable to attack Egypt on G1, making life hard on Italy as you described.

    Of course you have all the liberty of the world to guess the correct setup as we don’t know the whole true one, but this change is so big impact on game balance is very substantial.  😉

    p.s. trust me, if Japan wants, India will fall on J2. Only the Russians can prevent that, but I doubt they can spare the troops.

    Did you play it with this DD in SZ 15?  When did you take egypt?

    I am not shure to sacrify the german bomber for a landing operation in turn 1…

    No we did not. We used the R9 version of the map Bluestroke made. We believe that is the only setup that has some basis, the pictures from GenCon. Any changes to that setup (although we got confirmed there are some) are pure speculation.

    And unless you are unlucky, Germany should not push the Egypt attack until the bomber dies too.


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