The Italian overrun tactic



  • Just a tip of a tactic that was used in one of mine and Perry’s test games of AA50:

    *Italy attacks a defending Soviet force with some land units and aircraft, say in Belorussia, East Ukraine or Ukraine, winning narrowly.

    *Germany then moves tanks and aircraft through this hole in the front and attacks say Moscow or Caucasus.

    I was blown away by this move in the game, stupidly. Even if you’re aware about it, I think it will be difficult to defend against since the well-known Russian tactic of trading space for time is compromised. You will basically be forced to have reserves in your vital areas behind the front, limiting your offensive options.

    Do you have any thoughts what this will mean for the game? Will it make it worthwhile for the Allies to move against Italy early so as to tie down their forces in the Mediterranean theater of operations and deny their NOs?



  • Well, if Italy has aircraft to spare, then the Allies aren’t doing their job, and if Italy is moving land forces toward Belorussia or Eastern Ukraine, then he is obviously not going after Africa, which means he probably is only getting 10-15 IPC/turn.  Italy can hit Ukraine giving Germany a shot at Caucus, but I haven’t really seen that play yet, because in the 3 games I have played so far, Germany has always went north towards Karelia instead of south towards Caucus.



  • I’m saying that this is what Italy could do after EGY and TRJ have been taken with a combined German and Italian assault on turn 1-2, after which Italy has around 20 IPCs/turn. Going to southern Africa from Sudan and below might not be worth the effort considering what use the Italian units can be put to in Russia.

    In the games we’ve played, UK has been attacking NWY, FIN and KAR the first few turns and USA has been busy building fleets vs. Japan. My question is if a more anti-Italian strategy might be preferable, but then you will forfeit attacks by UK in the Scandinavia/Leningrad region and also weakening the build-up vs. Japan by the US.



  • In the games we have played so far, UK has basically not contested Germany taking, holding, and producing out of Karelia, but UK has either built an Indian IC (2 out of 3 games) which can help keep Italy out of Egypt or has reinforced Africa enough (with a little American help) to keep Italy out.  In the non-Indian IC game, England built an IC in Egypt and held it!  In 1 game, which the Axis won, Italy finally took most of Africa, but it was after the game had been basically decided.

    I do agree, that if Italy is not contested, then yes Italy can grow to the point of being able to sway the game to an Axis win.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Can you guys try my strategy for 1941 opening moves and see how it plays out? i was wondering how it would do.

    It could be of service


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Bardoly:

    I do agree, that if Italy is not contested, then yes Italy can grow to the point of being able to sway the game to an Axis win.

    Italy does not need to grow that big…

    Example:

    • Russia heavily stacked in CAU & KAR.
      Deadzone in EUK, BEL, UKR wuith 1 inf

    • Germany heavly stacked in EPL (east poland)

    • Italy sits with 2 inf in EPL and 1 ftr in Blk

    • UK busy trading KAR with Germany

    • US busy in the Pac

    Now on Italys turn, they can punch a hole in EUK or BEL (some 90%+ win…). Such a hole in the front line, could be used by German armor, to capture MOS or CAU. Of course it would put those ARMs at risk, but the value of stealing a capital should not be underestimated.

    Even if it does not lead to that, it would be absolutely necessary for the Ruskies to put up stronger Up-Front defenses, or to put stronger defenses in non-frontal positions such as MOS , for example. Either way, it draws resources off the Russians…

    So those two Italians infs on the east front, could prove your most valuable axis investment in the game…



  • I have to agree in the two games we played till decisive victory so far, the Italian proved very valuable in attacking Russia. With their fleet in the Med going to Ukraine and / Caucasus they can punch a hole in the lines of the Soviets.

    Or as we did in the last game, Italy manages to take Caucasus (already had troops in the Ukraine) and then Germany lands their fighters so Russia is unable to take Stalingrad back.

    In both our games, the axis won by the way. 😉


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    310: can you post the moves on the first turn for Germany, Italy and Soviets



  • @Driel310:

    I have to agree in the two games we played till decisive victory so far, the Italian proved very valuable in attacking Russia. With their fleet in the Med going to Ukraine and / Caucasus they can punch a hole in the lines of the Soviets.

    Or as we did in the last game, Italy manages to take Caucasus (already had troops in the Ukraine) and then Germany lands their fighters so Russia is unable to take Stalingrad back.

    In both our games, the axis won by the way. 😉

    I agree italy should stay in europe and attack russia. Africa has low resources and didn’t work out well for them in real life due to the desert.



  • @Imperious:

    310: can you post the moves on the first turn for Germany, Italy and Soviets

    I hope I can remember them all, but from our second game Germany opened as follows:

    Germany

    • Build 10 inf (what else is new :p)

    • Attacks:

    SZ 2 with 2 subs + 1 ftr cleared without loss since both subs made First strike hits
    SZ 6 with 1 subs + CA -> cleared without loss
    Egypt with 2 inf, 1 rtl, 2 arm, 1 bmb -> LOST, with 1 arm, 1 ftr remaining of UK
    Ukraine with 2 inf, 1 rtl, 1 ftr -> cleared, can’t remember how much I had left
    East Poland with 3 inf, 1 rtl, 6 arm -> cleared, can’t remember how much I had left
    Baltic States with 4 inf, 2 ftrs -> cleared, can’t remember how much I had left

    That was it. Egypt was a real bad roll making the African campaign a loser after G1. It is a must do move IMHO since you can’t afford the British to stay alive there, due to a possible Indian IC or worse, Allied ships in the Med.

    • Non Combat:
      1 inf, from Morocco to Lybia
      1 inf, 1 rtl from Germany to Poland
      1 ftr lands in Norway
      2 inf from Norway to Finland
      1 ftr lands in Germany
      2 ftrs land in Poland
      1 bmb land in Lybia

    • Collect income:
      35 IPC + 10 NO = 45 Income

    Russia

    Now I played Germany myself, that’s why I can remember a lot in detail, from Russia I remember a little bit less .

    • Build 1 inf, 1 bmb, 1 ftr, 1 arm

    • Attacks:

    On Baltic States with 7 inf, 1 rtl, 1 arm. But the rolls on the first round were not that good, so Russia decided to retreat back to Karelia.

    Then a lot of non-combat, forgive me how they went exactly, but in the end it was like troops in Moscow, Caucasus and Karelia. 1 inf in both Eastern Ukraine and Belorussia. Nothing special in Siberia, just massing inf at Buryatin.

    • Collect income:

    26 IPC +5 NO = 31 income

    Looking in hindsight the build of Russia was a bit too aggressive. Maybe 1 ftr less and 2 arm more would have been better. But from some things you learn.

    UK

    You didn’t ask for UK, but I’ll include them for short as well.  😉

    UK Build 1 CV, 2 DD’s and 1 CA

    UK cleared ALL ships of Germany, except one sub in SZ 6. So the nice rolls on G1 in the sea were cancelled out.
    UK ftr from Egypt killed the lonely trn from Germany so that was game over in Africa for Germany. They never returned there in the entire game. India was abandoned, also due to pressure from Japan.
    UK trn from Canada landed amph. in Morocco straight away.

    All UK builds were placed in SZ2.

    Italy
    -  Build 1 ftr (the normal build would have 1 trn and 1 inf, but since Egypt was not down and there were UK ships in the Med I couldn’t and had to move the Italian fleet to Gibralter to kill those ships.

    • Attacks:

    1 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr to Morocco taken
    1 BB, 2 CA’s to SZ 13 vs 1 CA, 1 DD and 1 trn cleared without loss (BB took 1 hit)
    2 inf from Lybia to Egypt taken

    • Collect income:

    10 IPC + 5 NO = 15 income

    That was it. Overall, things didn’t go well for the axis due to the Egypt debacle. However Germany has to attack Egypt. UK will move those troops out and they will hunt you down later on if you don’t. According to the odds calc it is a 80% battle and in our first game Germany took it with 2 arm alive! Due to good rolls against the soviets the east front looked better and in the end that is what the Axis won the game.  Don’t know which turn, but first Italy took the Ukraine, to be followed by German armor + fighters. Then the same happened with the Caucasus, so Italy had a factory at Stalingrad (how cool is that ). Stalingrad was defended by Italians, Germans and even Japanese who had broken through India/Persia. The Germans only bought infantry in the first turns. With a USA going for 100% Pacific fleet (John Barbarossa can tell you about how that went), all those infantry moved east and after a few turns they ran over Leningrad, moved in to Belorussia and then the final blow on Moscow.

    There a very long story on how the first turn looked.



  • Well i can see the italians have 2 choices to play.  they can go all out on africa or go for russia i like to help the germans in france and send in russia/africa i would choose a plane i just love how they retreat!



  • LOL,

    Excellent move and Great Name for the Tactic…



  • ll I can say: Avanti Savoia 😉



  • @Bluestroke:

    LOL,

    Excellent move and Great Name for the Tactic…

    do i smell… sarcartisticness!

    o well!

    anyways i think it should be something like bessarabia attempts (make it sound historical !)



  • @Driel310:

    Now I played Germany myself, that’s why I can remember a lot in detail, from Russia I remember a little bit less .

    • Build 1 inf, 1 bmb, 1 ftr, 1 arm

    • Attacks:

    :? :? :? :lol: 😮 😮 :roll: :roll:

    What kind of games are you really playing???



  • a&a50 his answer will be lol (when i first read it i thought he was russia to what a waste laugh out loud!)



  • Italy should attack the Russians because that takes pressure off of Germany in their invasion of Russia and it expands Italy’s income base, which it needs to do very quickly before the Allies take over Italy.



  • @Sherman:

    Italy should attack the Russians because that takes pressure off of Germany in their invasion of Russia and it expands Italy’s income base, which it needs to do very quickly before the Allies take over Italy.

    After Italy, secures, Med and Africa? 
    A slight delay, allows the German Player some time to build his strike force.
    I would use this tactic.  It pressures USSR Stalingrad IC and UK India IC. 
    We have used this overrun technique with UK and USA often enough.  It will be nice, now the Axis can use this same tactic.  I also believe this provides a strong argument for the Southern route to Moscow.



  • @Bluestroke:

    @Sherman:

    Italy should attack the Russians because that takes pressure off of Germany in their invasion of Russia and it expands Italy’s income base, which it needs to do very quickly before the Allies take over Italy.

    After Italy, secures, Med and Africa? 
    A slight delay, allows the German Player some time to build his strike force.
    I would use this tactic.  It pressures USSR Stalingrad IC and UK India IC. 
    We have used this overrun technique with UK and USA often enough.  It will be nice, now the Axis can use this same tactic.  I also believe this provides a strong argument for the Southern route to Moscow.

    I agree



  • Meh,  i choose the route that i think will be more profitable example :  i can send 2 inf. and 2 tanks at  place that is 5 ipc’s and has 2 infantry on it or a territory that has 7 infantry worth  2 ipc’s and you can send 3 fighters 5 tanks and 4 infantry!  hmmmmmmm which 1 like southern or northern what makes you get a better chance!


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