Amphibious assaults can be done in two steps, consisting of a sea battle and a land battle. In your example, both the cruiser and the transport would attack the destroyer. If the attackers win, the transport can offload and the land battle will occur. If the transport ends up retreating (or being sunk), the land battle will not occur and the transport may not offload.
AA50 Rules Errata and Q+A
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That is a no go Bardoly. I would like to see Kreighund spell out the exact “official” Air unit retreat rules as they are a little less clear than in previous versions.
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That is a no go Bardoly. I would like to see Kreighund spell out the exact “official” Air unit retreat rules as they are a little less clear than in previous versions.
I PM’d Bardoly before, and I know Krieg will straighten all this out, but basically -
All units have to retreat together except
1) When subs have already submerged in a previous round of combat (you can’t submerge and retreat at the same time)
2) Retreating air, and possibly air + overland ground units separately from amphibious assault units.So if you’re in the middle of this sea battle, and you have no destroyers, and he just has subs and transports, the transports are the only eligible casualties for your aircraft attack, and then they’re only sunk if your aircraft rolls a 3 or 4 or less, as applicable. It is not in any way in accordance with the rules to pull back boats while having your aircraft sink transports. Everything must retreat together after a full round of combat.
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Yes, I agree with both of you.
I was stating what I wish could happen, but in my first post I stated what I felt the rules were and how I played it out.
So, to be VERY clear, the way that I understand it is as follows:
Hypothetical situation
I REALLY need to destroy 5 enemy transports, but they are defended by 14 subs and 5 destroyers. I only have 4 air units in range (bombers), but I REALLY need to destroy the transports, because if even 1 transport is left alive, then I will lose the game, and I’m afraid that the 5 destroyers will hit my bombers, so I do have 15 cv’s (with no fighters - remember, this is hypothetical) in range. I do have 20 destroyers and 20 fighters which may move to 1 space away from the combat sea zone, so I want to retreat any available cv’s back so that they can join up with the destroyers and fighters.
So, I attack the 5 transports, 5 destroyers, 14 subs with 15 carriers, 4 bombers.
Since I have no attacking destroyer, all 20 of his subs fire Surprise Strikes, and for the sake of the hypothetical, we’ll use Low Luck calculations.
His 14 subs hit 2 cvs, so then I’m left with 13 cv’s. They and the 4 bombers get 5 hits (2 sea, and 3 air). My opponent will apply the 2 sea hits to the subs and the 3 air hits to the destroyers. He fires back with his 5 dd’s and gets 2 hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
Round 2 – I have 11 cv’s and 4 bombers vs his 5 transports, 12 subs, 2 destroyers.
His 12 subs get 2 Surprise Strike hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
My 9 cv’s and 4 bombers fire and get 4 hits (1 naval, and 3 air)
My opponent will apply the naval hit to the subs and 2 of the 3 air hits to the remaining 2 destroyers. This leaves 1 air hit left to be applied. In my understanding, this hit must be applied to a defending transport.
His 2 remaining destroyers fire back and get 1 hit, so I lose 1 more cv.
Round 3 – I have 8 cv’s and 4 bombers vs his 4 transports, 11 subs.
His 11 subs get 2 Surprise Strike hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
My 6 cv’s and 4 bombers fire and get 4 hits (1 naval, and 3 air)
My opponent will apply the naval hit to the subs and the 3 air hits to defending transports.
Round 4 – I have 6 cv’s and 4 bombers vs his 1 transport and 10 subs.
His 10 subs get 2 Surprise Strike hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
My 4 cv’s and 4 bombers fire and get 4 hits (1 naval, and 3 air)
My opponent will apply the naval hit to the subs and the 3 air hits to the final remaining transport.
Now at the beginning of round 5, I have 4 carriers and 4 bombers remaining, and my opponent has 9 subs remaining (with NO transports). I now choose to retreat, having accomplished my goal of sinking ALL 5 of his transports, even though I had to lose 11 carriers to do it.This is the way that I understand the rules.
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That is correct Bardoly.
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To my mind, at the point where the defender has only subs and trannies, and that you do not have any destroyer, then, the trannies are automatically dead if you stay one more round. That would mean that you have to fight the subs only one more round to finish the trannies.
So on your example, you could avoid round 4.
But this is only my understanding.
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Your scenarios are played out correctly, Bardoly. The important thing to understand about the defenseless transport rule is that it is designed purely to keep players from having to roll several rounds of combat just to reach an inevitable conclusion. It takes effect only when one side that can’t retreat no longer has units capable of hitting the other side’s units.
To answer your specific questions:
1) COULD I have retreated my naval ships at the beginning of round 3, leaving only my 2 jets in the battle so as to sink the transport? I don’t believe so, but I’d like a confirmation.
No.
2) Is my single jet hit in round 4 applied to the transport because there are no other eligible targets?
Yes.
3) Did I play this out correctly? In other words, is my battle turn sequence and choosing casualties correct?
Yes.
4) My opponent says that he has never experienced this situation before, but he believes that I must destroy the sub first before destroying the transport, but he’s not for certain, so that’s why we’re getting this ruling. If he is correct, then what would happen if we went to Round 5, and his final sub’s surprise strike hit my bb, and my fighters both missed? Would we go to Round 6, with 2 jets firing at 1 sub, but both sides NEVER hitting?
He’s not correct (in this situation).
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To my mind, at the point where the defender has only subs and trannies, and that you do not have any destroyer, then, the trannies are automatically dead if you stay one more round. That would mean that you have to fight the subs only one more round to finish the trannies.
So on your example, you could avoid round 4.
But this is only my understanding.
No, Yoshi, that’s not how it works. Like Krieghund said, trannies are only automatically dead when they’re the only thing left, to save you from rolling.
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You must be pretty desperate if you have to sacrifice 10 carriers to kill 5 transports
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You must be pretty desperate if you have to sacrifice 10 carriers to kill 5 transports
Right. I think he said it was hypothetical, though.
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I know, but still
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If you have 4 planes (plus boat(s)) engaged against subs and transports, the 4 planes sink 4 transports per round.
No, they don’t, at least not automatically. Hits are rolled and assigned normally, with attacking air hits assigned to defending transports, as they have no other targets. Only after all of the attacking ships (leaving only attacking air units) or all of the defending subs (leaving only defending transports) are sunk are any transports destroyed automatically.
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If you have 4 planes (plus boat(s)) engaged against subs and transports, the 4 planes sink 4 transports per round.
No, they don’t, at least not automatically. Hits are rolled and assigned normally, with attacking air hits assigned to defending transports, as they have no other targets. Only after all of the attacking ships (leaving only attacking air units) or all of the defending subs (leaving only defending transports) are sunk are any transports destroyed automatically.
Oops! Right! Glad you caught that right away, thanks. I’ll edit my post.
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Your scenarios are played out correctly, Bardoly. The important thing to understand about the defenseless transport rule is that it is designed purely to keep players from having to roll several rounds of combat just to reach an inevitable conclusion. It takes effect only when one side that can’t retreat no longer has units capable of hitting the other side’s units.
To answer your specific questions:
1) COULD I have retreated my naval ships at the beginning of round 3, leaving only my 2 jets in the battle so as to sink the transport? I dont believe so, but Id like a confirmation.
No.
2) Is my single jet hit in round 4 applied to the transport because there are no other eligible targets?
Yes.
3) Did I play this out correctly? In other words, is my battle turn sequence and choosing casualties correct?
Yes.
4) My opponent says that he has never experienced this situation before, but he believes that I must destroy the sub first before destroying the transport, but hes not for certain, so thats why were getting this ruling. If he is correct, then what would happen if we went to Round 5, and his final subs surprise strike hit my bb, and my fighters both missed? Would we go to Round 6, with 2 jets firing at 1 sub, but both sides NEVER hitting?
He’s not correct (in this situation).
Thanks Krieg for clearing that up, it was such an unusual sitituation I wanted to get a ruling on record for future games.
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Hello to everybody, I hope this is the right topic for clarification on the rules: if there’s an UK AAgun in a Russian controlled territory, does it prevent Russia from collecting it’s Nat Obj bonus??
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Yes it does.
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Russian NO Reads:
“Gain 5 IPCs if no other Allied forces are present in a territory controlled by the Soviet Union and if the Soviets control Archangel.”
pg 23
Page 25 of the Axis and Allies Revised manual states that Anti-Aircraft guns revert to the ownership of the original owner when liberated, thus implying they are that player’s forces.
It is thus my belief, that a British Anti-Aircraft gun in Soviet territories negates the Russian National Objective.
If they did not, it is my belief they would act like Industrial Complexes and, when liberated, revert to who ever owned the land the complex was on, not who first purchased the unit.
The distinction is, if Germany captures an AA Gun (Russian) and moves it to France where it is liberated by the Americans later in the game, the AA Gun is replaced with a Russian gun.
If Russia purchases an Industrial Complex on Poland, losses it to Germany, and the Americans subsequently liberate the complex, it becomes American.
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Per the Revised FAQ, the AA gun reverts to the original owner of the territory. In your example, the US would get the AA gun.
The same applies to AA50.
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They changed it in the FAQ, huh? Usually, in F2F games, we just put a control marker under the gun so people know who owned it originally.
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Yes that is the standard way to do it when you move an AA gun into an allied territory, but when the territory gets captured, say goodbye to your AA gun. It is going to your ally.
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I understand that, I’m just thinking that’s a cheap way to give someone free AA Guns…great if your ally has rockets but is strapped for cash!
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