People getting worse, or am I actually getting better?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Eons ago (like before the year 2000) I started playing Axis and Allies (2nd edition).  I was the best in my school, but that’s not saying much considering the Vice Captain of the Chess team failed to stop me from performing the fool’s mate.

    Later I learned a lot, mostly in the MSN gaming zone (and you know how bad they were!)  I routinely got stomped by real players in classic.

    But lately, and I just came off like a 4 year sabbatical from classic mind you, I’ve been doing extremely well.  Of the past 7 classic games played, I’ve won all 7.  2 By forfeit instead of letting me actually get Berlin, 5 because Tokyo or Berlin fell before Moscow.

    So I have to wonder, am I getting better, or are players getting REALLY bad at the game now?  I mean, it’s hard to keep in mind that tanks are worthless in defense in classic and that battleships take one hit to sink, but honestly, Japan falling in 4 rounds to America?  Germany forgetting to defend W. Europe allowing American and British forces to land there and hold it indefinitely?

    I’m just wondering….maybe the site needs to have a Classic Tournament just to give the group a brain-duster and refresh everyone’s memories on how to play the classic version of the game?


  • As someone who put their Classic board out to pasture 2 years ago…

    I think the remaining Classic players are getting rusty.
    :mrgreen:


  • I havent played Classic for several years, but it’s easier to compare skills in Revised because we know how much to bid.

    I didn’t even use bids in Classic… :lol:

    I’ve heard Classic bids range from 20-30 ipc…

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Classic bids do, still, average about 21 IPC (usually for 7 infantry in E. Europe.)  Honestly, I’ve been bidding 24 for 3 submarines in Black Sea (currently known as SZ 16/Black Sea) because it’s low enough i MIGHT win, but strong enough to sink the Germans in Italy with Russia.

    It just seems that players do not know how to deal with the “Kwangbang” anymore. (England takes Kwangtung, Russia takes Manchuria) with a Russia retreat to Russia and the Baltic Fleet sunk.

  • Moderator

    I haven’t played 2nd Ed in a long time so I can’t really judge the current level of play, but 21-22 still sounds about right.  I’d probably bid about that given I haven’t played in a while.

    As for Kwangbang, that seems odd since a PAfr bid should take that option off the table:

    2 inf Man
    1 inf EE
    4 inf Lib

    Now if you are talking PE bids only, Kwangbang is a definite option and solid counter.

    Its funny cause I’ve chatted with Agent recently about PE plays and we’ve talked about the Kar stack or deadzoning it etc.

    Anyway, maybe I’ll have to get back into 2nd Ed too.  I almost entered the DAAK 2nd Ed LL tourney but just didn’t think I’d have the time at the moment.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t understand how Power Africa negates the ability of Kwangbang.  To be honest, unless Japan gets 6 IPC of the bid (1 Infantry for Manchuria and 1 Infantry for Kwangtung) I don’t see much that would stop the allies from attacking those territories.  Far better to destroy the Japanese fighter in Manchuria then cower in Yakut, I believe.

    Anyway, recently, everyone’s been bidding 7 Infantry in E. Europe.  So I dead zone Karelia (no way you can hold it against that number of troops.  You have 15 infantry, 7 armor, 5 fighters and a bomber that can hit Karelia on Germany 1 and that’s assuming the transport in the Baltic was sunk by Russia.)

    But on counter attack, the Germans always get nailed.  I don’t know why, but players always stack Karelia to the gills.  Maybe because they don’t understand why I, as Russia, build 3 infantry, 3 armor instead of 8 infantry.  (Gives me 6 armor, 2 fighters + 16 Infantry to use to attack Karelia. )


  • I find this topic very interesting.  One would think that it would be easier to go from revised to classic versus classic to revised.

    I suppose I should dust off the cobwebs and give it a whirl this weekend.

    LT

  • Moderator

    @Cmdr:

    I don’t understand how Power Africa negates the ability of Kwangbang.  To be honest, unless Japan gets 6 IPC of the bid (1 Infantry for Manchuria and 1 Infantry for Kwangtung) I don’t see much that would stop the allies from attacking those territories.

    By nature the PAfr bid DOES place 1-2 inf in Man.  You don’t need 7 inf in Afr.  So you place 4 in Afr, 1 in EE, and 2 in Man.

    Without the Man attack by Russia, UK has no business attacking Kwa.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Sounds more like power Asia then power africa, in my opinion.

    Does the one guy in E. Europe really make that big of a difference?  The whole point of taking E. Europe - to me, is stopping the Germans from bringing all those tanks to bear on Karelia.


  • There are still many great 2nd edition players out there….I get beaten all the time.

    My standard bid is 5inf libya, 1inf Eeu, 1inf Bur and 1ipc Germany. Personally, I love it when someone Kwangbangs me against this bid.


  • The extra inf in Eeu is good for countering Ukraine and killing off the russian armor.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    So far this year, 100% of my opponents have gone 7 Infantry in E. Europe

    Kwangbang is very successful with minimal risk really.  1)  You get a Japanese fighter.  2)  You get Kwangtung and Manchuria which is +6 Allies and has to be liberated, usually resulting in China not falling to Japan and an extra American fighter on the game board (+12 Allies).

    So you lose 2 British Infantry, 5 Russian Infantry, 1 Russian Armor for: 5 Japanese Infantry, 1 Japanese Fighter +  A bonus American Fighter.

    Loss: 26 IPC
    Gain: 39 IPC (Total Japanese Units killed + Allied Units saved in the maneuver.)


    I think it should be noted that a power Europe build necessitates an armor build for Russia.  I like 3 Inf, 3 Arm.  This gives you 6 Armor, 2 fighters to hit Karelia with, so that massive stack of units defending at two has a good size stack of units attacking at 3 supported by a massive stack of units attacking at 1.


  • @Cmdr:

    So far this year, 100% of my opponents have gone 7 Infantry in E. Europe

    Kwangbang is very successful with minimal risk really.  1)  You get a Japanese fighter.  2)  You get Kwangtung and Manchuria which is +6 Allies and has to be liberated, usually resulting in China not falling to Japan and an extra American fighter on the game board (+12 Allies).

    So you lose 2 British Infantry, 5 Russian Infantry, 1 Russian Armor for: 5 Japanese Infantry, 1 Japanese Fighter +  A bonus American Fighter.

    Loss: 26 IPC
    Gain: 39 IPC (Total Japanese Units killed + Allied Units saved in the maneuver.)


    I think it should be noted that a power Europe build necessitates an armor build for Russia.  I like 3 Inf, 3 Arm.  This gives you 6 Armor, 2 fighters to hit Karelia with, so that massive stack of units defending at two has a good size stack of units attacking at 3 supported by a massive stack of units attacking at 1.

    That math doesn’t quite work out because Japan should lose additional units if they follow the plan you laid out above. However, Japan does not have to take back Kwangtung (I wouldn’t) and the US is not completely safe in China now(I would try to kill them if feasible).

    It sounds like you are describing some variation of the Brutus Backstep to counter PE, especially your purchase…which I am sure can work quite effectively, Brutus’ record speaks for itself. If your last 7 games were 7inf ukr PE bids and you have won all seven, why fix what isn’t broken. Keep on Backstepping.

    here’s a link for the Brutus Backstep where it is discussed a little:
    http://iaapaopenforumbbs.yuku.com/topic/1266/t/Brutus-Backstep.html

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I was assuming that Japan lost nothing liberating Kwangtung and Manchuria

    Also, China is not overly feasible anymore.  You have 2 American Infantry, 1 American Fighter, 1 British Fighter, 1 Russian Fighter in China.  To attack that, you have 2 Japanese infantry and planes you decide not to use to help in Manchuria and Kwangtung.  You just don’t have the firepower, in my opinion, to do anything but try to liberate both Manchuria and Kwangtung and that’s assuming you for go hitting Hawaii’s fleet.


  • I guess we will just have to play each other at some point  😉


  • I’m ashamed to admit it   :oops: but, I have not played anything but revised since it came out and as far as classic I don’t think I’ve played it since my days in the military…15yrs ago. :mrgreen:

    Back than I only played the few dudes that I could find that were even remotely interested in the game, and I sure as heck did not know of anyone that actually competed in tournaments or discussed strategy outside of the time it took to play, so I’ve never even played it with a bid, I never heard of it back than…it was not in the rule book so I had no idea it even existed.

    And now, since I unfortunately I don’t have the time to game like I did so many years ago  😢, when  I do get to game I only play the revised because I believe revised is such a better game than classic.  So with limited game times, I only want to only play the “better game”.  😐

    I think the majority of players that you are going to compete with online now that are willing to try classic are probably “worse” not because they are rusty but because they know less about classic  :? in general than revised.  Most Online players (generally speaking) are probably of the “post classic age” (young pups) and simply haven’t played it.

    Taking revised as an example, I thought I was a decent player.  Than a friend of a friend told me about tripleA, and when I played it online I ran across “the bid”, “low Luck” and “Territory Turn Limit”, things that to a dude that just bought and played the boxed game with a few friends I had not even heard of.  I must have played 30+games before I even came close to winning. (I figured I must have really sucked  😮 or I was a slow learner  :?).  I can only imagine that classic players are even more out of sorts on how to best play it.

    Just a guess.


  • My cousin and I play Axis & Allies (I think 2nd edition) quite often for years.

    I honestly have no idea what most of the jargon in this thread is heh.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Jargon:

    Low Luck is basically adding all attack or defense divide by 6= hits per round, fractions roll out so if you got 20, then you got 3 hits and you roll a 4th die with another hit on 2 or less.


  • @Imperious:

    Jargon:

    Low Luck is basically adding all attack or defense divide by 6= hits per round, fractions roll out so if you got 20, then you got 3 hits and you roll a 4th die with another hit on 2 or less.

    So then what is “Territory Turn Limit”

    LT


  • Edit: err, nevermind ~ZP


  • TTL, territory turn limit means that the maximum amount of damage done by each SBR attack, is same as the ipc value of the territory.


  • As a player that has not played 2nd edition, I can speak little on this subject.  :x

    I’m lucky if I can find enough players once a year to play.  :?

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    post in players wanted section. or start a meetup.com group in your area. Find a hobby/game store and arrange the members to play one sat each month during store hours.


  • I still favor a PAf bid over a PE bid. With PE you kinda need to win quick, because you pretty much neglect Africa and leave Japan in a hole. In my experience PE bid games are most of the time short games, where either the Allies keep Russia, or the Axis takes Russia. Those concepts will happen after 3-4 rounds finishing the game and leaves either the Axis or the Allies fight in a lost position.

    The difficulty with a PAf bid of 21 is that you will have 6 inf and 1 arm in Lib. You attack Egypt and in a low luck game you will 5 inf + arm remaining if lady luck favor you. The hard part about this is that the UK will almost suicide with 3 inf, 1 fig and 1 bomb on egypt and with a little luck leave the axis with 1 arm or 1 arm and 1 inf screwing over your whole PAf bid… If you use 2 inf from SEu to fortify Egypt you will have a hard time in Europe and if you put an extra inf in Lib from manch (from the bid) you will have a chance that Russia and England will go for it setting you back a lot…

    Its a long time ago I discussed strats for 2nd ed A&A, but still fun.


  • @Cmdr:

    I don’t understand how Power Africa negates the ability of Kwangbang.  To be honest, unless Japan gets 6 IPC of the bid (1 Infantry for Manchuria and 1 Infantry for Kwangtung) I don’t see much that would stop the allies from attacking those territories.  Far better to destroy the Japanese fighter in Manchuria then cower in Yakut, I believe.

    Why would you want to spread those two inf? If the allies can’t take both its not worth it… So if you have 5 inf, 1 arm and 1 fig vs 5(I don’t remember if it was 5 or 6), 1 arm and 1 fig… You won’t get the jap fig, but accomplish that Japan can easily walk through Asia and if you take kwantung (Germany will get a huge IPC boost, because they can hold Africa so much longer), you won’t really set back the Japanese…

    Btw a PAs bid should be around 32 to make the game interesting…

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