G U A R D - german submarine and air strategy for AA50

  • German

    Originally, my post presented an idea for an elaborate strategy involving sub and air attacks vs. an invasion fleet. As my fellow-forumers pointed out, however, a single DD can block subs from getting farther than the North Sea and then UK can safely land in France or Norway and only have to defend vs. air units on their own. So, will AA50 be a change from A&A Revised when it comes to Germany and naval builds? I rest my case here on a sub strategy and leave the floor open! Can you help me out?

    Ps. This is not a game-breaking thing for me, I’ll buy the game and enjoy it even though I won’t buy a single sub as Germany, it’s just a thing I hoped AA50 would adress in order to come closer to history where subs were a real danger will into 1943 for the UK. Ds.

  • Only flaw i see is that your cruiser and transport are still vulnerable to air attack. Your subs won’t do much to help you defend thoses.

    Also, you need to post in 1941 strategy forum 🙂

  • I like your strategy; but correct me if I’m wrong, but all the UK needs to do to deter your plan is spend 8 IPC on a DD…

  • @captainjack:

    I like your strategy; but correct me if I’m wrong, but all the UK needs to do to deter your plan is spend 8 IPC on a DD…

    lol  😄

  • Air power and destroyers will destroy that strategy, but it will take time to build these units for the UK. This may be a good strategy if the Germans want to disrupt the Allied shipping chain.

  • Germany goes before UK, allowing them to place subs in the Baltic before UK can move DDs into range of the Baltic.  Then when the UK DOES move a DD in range, Germany takes the DD out with sub + air.  I believe that is what he wants to happen.  And then if the UK tries to move its entire naval force to land, it will be in range of the subs.  The problem I see is with UK moving 1 DD to block (subs can’t bypass destroyers, right?), while moving the rest of the navy into a sea zone behind it for a landing, then taking out the subs on their next turn.

  • This is a bit embarassing, but I actually didn’t think of the DD block in North Sea counter…  😐 Perhaps the idea of subs actually being a worthwhile buy for the first time in Axis & Allies history got me carried away and stopped my brain from working correctly!

    This was the only strategy I could think of where Germany could use subs in a constructive way. So, if sub rules stand as they are with regard to sub movement, this strategy fails. Yes, subs can survive in the Baltic, but if they won’t get further than the North Sea the game is still flawed…  😞

    Krieghund, if the rules haven’t been printed yet, send Larry an email and ask him to change sub movement… 😉

  • The main problem I see with your plan is that UK in the 41 senario starts with 43 (?) IPC, and can spend every single penny on
    a counter move. And UK starts with quit a lot of destroiers allready. Build a few subs as germany might be usefull FIRST round, but my guess is that after first round, UK will have a larger fleet and be able to kill subs very easily.
    Building 2 subs meight still be nice first round as it forces UK to build ships and maybe it can delay the invation of europe.

    UK might want subs to kill the Italian fleet.
    US and Japan might want subs to fight in the pacific.
    Italy might ofcourse need a few subs.
    So subs will definitivly be usefull in AA50, sadly not so usefull for Germany I guess.

    But one question about subs: What happens if 3 subs attack 2 carriers with 4 planes?
    : can the planes defend? (no Destroyers in the defending fleet)
    : can planes be takes as cassulty?

    If the answere is no to both these question, the fact that Japan starts with very few destroyers will be a very very big limitation for them. US can build a few very deadly submarines which can litteraly destroy the Japan fleet.

  • @Greand:

    : can the planes defend? (no Destroyers in the defending fleet)
    : can planes be takes as cassulty?

    no and no

  • Official Q&A

    Cruisers and battleships can still be a fairly effective sub screen for carriers.  They won’t allow the fighters to hit subs, but they can still fire back themselves, and they can take the bullet for the carriers.  Leaving carriers unescorted isn’t a very good policy when there are subs about.

  • For the UK moving a destroyer to block sea zone so their fleet behind it can strike the next turn, i don’t see it as a great counter.

    If german send it’s own ship to take the destroyer out, it will end it’s turn there and effectively screen the rest of its sub in the zone behind from an attack. Even if it is destroyed as casulaty to avoid air loss, German can move another ship in non combat move in the now empty zone.

    German main goal is to defend baltic zone, which is still accomplished.

  • /corbeaublanc

    I’ve now changed my first post and made it more of an open question if the Germans will buy subs in the game at all. The idea for my strategy was not to defend the Baltic but to delay an invasion to win the war against the Russians.

  • It will delay a direct invasion of Germany.

    Might want to spice things up and have your own transports. A combination of a CV early on and then full subs like you intended. I’m pretty sure you can still use your subs as casualties.

    That way you maintain a sea lion threat while still enforcing your policy. The single destroyer will not prevent you to move in for amphibious assault.

    At worst case, use Italy planes to kill that destroyer blocking your fleet. Can opener the way and then sink the main UK fleet with your strat on Germany’s turn.

  • One thing I loved about “Europe” is that instead of an advanced or veteran rule; (ie: A & A) you actually start out with a realistic amount of Atlantic subs to disrupt the shipping lanes like they so effectively did early in the war.

  • @Obergruppenfuhrer:

    One thing I loved about “Europe” is that instead of an advanced or veteran rule; (ie: A & A) you actually start out with a realistic amount of Atlantic subs to disrupt the shipping lanes like they so effectively did early in the war.

    Yeah, I like that too.

  • /corbeaublanc

    Hey, why didn’t you say that thing about Italy destroying the blocking DD before? I wouldn’t have to edit my own post away in anger at my own stupidity…  😛

    So, Italy should buy a BMB and then have a FTR and BMB ready to destroy that DD block. But that leaves the field for the US to send in a DD as well, and they move AFTER Italy! The plot thickens.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    For Italy don’t you think they need a transport so they can get all those stranded men out of Italy?  They are out of position and their natural focus is Africa. A bomber is 12 IPC and Italy has 10 IPC.  Perhaps transport, THEN BOMBER?

  • /IL

    All this is still hypothetical. As I have admitted, a sub strategy for Germany is yet to be found. If UK’s DD block is shot down, US will just put a new one in the North Sea.

    Unfortunately, we might still be in the AAR scenario that Germany needs to build a full fleet with one, possibly two, CVs, and hold its own vs. the Royal Navy. And I don’t see how they can afford that considering the amount of inf & tanks you need to get East to make any headway vs. the Soviets!

  • /Lynxes

    Well, i would have mention Italy been able to break blockade but did not think of it before. Also, i don’t think there is stupid ideas. In my line of work, i seen the stupidiest things being implemented, it’s scary eh.

    Anyways. I was looking at the map and the issue of being blockaded and stucked in Baltic.

    Why would the german player force himself being trap there?

    • Let’s say you build an IC in France turn 1. A second IC for Germany seems a necessity in AA50 and likely France will be the popular choice.
    • Let’s say you base your fleet right there in SZ7 from turn 2.
    • Worst case scenario, Italy is preped for can opening planes at the ready.

    Sz7 is the sea zone you want to defend anyways. Your strategy implies you will clean up the UK fleet round 1. Also that you don’t want allies to take France.

    From round 2, i’m pretty sure you could mount up your GUARD effectively from France and there is hardly anything UK-USA can do to effectively block you in that position even without Italy air-force.

    Hey, being overly ambitious, could prolly block all sea zone around UK but i’m not sure if a sub can prevent deploying in the same sea zone. Prolly not, eh.

  • Customizer

    I posted this elsewhere on AA.org.

    The only way I’ve been able to make subs of any use is by implementing a house rule that effects the economics of the game.

    One way you can do this is to let your subs perform commerce raids. You can do this by allowing them to attack the coastlines of territories that have ICs on them the way an SBR is conducted in the air. You can use destroyers as a kind of “AA gun”.

    The other option is to allow a bonus for subs of -1 ipc per round, per unit, loss to enemy ipcs when the victory check is done. The teams/sides will divide the cost amongs themselves and turn the money into the bank. This makes subs a nasty little menace that I don’t think they get the credit for in the game.

    The other option I came up with is to consider transports as mobile ICs as far as them being strategic targets, allowing subs to SBR/commerce raid them. the TRs aren’t destroyed but a IPC penalty would apply.

    Just a thought, but subs are kind of useless in my AA world otherwise.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    That idea is in house rules. And it has already been developed before the game came out.

  • 2007 AAR League

    I like your strategy; but correct me if I’m wrong, but all the UK needs to do to deter your plan is spend 8 IPC on a DD…

    Let Japan send a fig or two to germany.  Problem solved.

  • /nix

    Thanks for resurrecting this old duck which I thought was a dead one!  😉

    Actually, your idea works for the '42 scenario where Japan can clear a US destroyer block, according to this scheme:

    3. Germany: builds subs in Baltic Sea and bases aircraft in Germany to strike at possible invasion fleet outside of France.
    4. UK: invades France and puts a DD block in North Sea.
    5. Italy: attacks DD block with aircraft.
    6. USA: puts DD block in North Sea.
    1. Japan: attacks DD block with aircraft.
    3. Germany: strikes invasion fleet with sub+air!!  :evil:

  • Listen guys,

    with the new rules concerning subs and the way their stats are now edited, I would say that they are now more useless than anything.

    THey are very weak and can not even be used to block seazones anymore.

    I guess the GUARD strategy would work if you used some other types of vessels and if you built an IC in France in the first turn and then save as many units as you can from the allies and merge them in the sea zone in front of France…
    I have actually never tried that but if you could do this to counter the allies, you would have to face an unexperimented russian fool to get away with it and still scream ‘’ Nazi victory’’ at the end of the game…

    I used to be such a fan of german subs before the 50th edition… as said before in EUROPE they were very strong, you could catch every trade route of the allies in 1 single turn and crush their heads… still.

  • /Je Gab Fan

    I don’t agree. My idea is for a COUNTER-attack, you let UK invade and then wipe out his fleet with a combined attack with subs and aircraft at the same time as you destroy the landing force with your army. (If you want a fleet to defend with you buy one or two CVs, and even then you mostly hang out in the Baltic as the German player in order to shuttle troops to Karelia and protect from invasions.)

    Subs are the cheapest unit for naval attacks at 3 IPCs / attack number, only bombers match this but with subs you get two hit points for each one you get buying bombers. The optimum attacking force is a combo of subs and air.

    Only Germany can focus fully on attack since all other powers need to have defensive fleets and there subs are not that useful even though they can still be important additions for when you face an opposing fleet and need some more offensive power and more hit points.

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