A question of honor



  • I fought a long battle between Obergruppenfuhrer and I. If I remember correctly it was 250 point battle and I dragged it on to ten turns. I had two units left, a jeep and a screaming eagle paratrooper. Obergruppenfuhrer
    had four units left, two tanks, a brummbar, his nashorn, an officer and an expert sniper.
        It was the sixth turn and it was a race for the objective. Located on a hill which was ajasent to a forest due north and grassland east of it. My screaming eagle paratrooper was moving as fast as he could-opting to move instead of shooting in the assault phase. He made it into the forest (this had to be like the 12th successful roll into cover) by the seveth turn, so in the assault phase he moved into the objective. With a 5/5
    defense and my luck I could hold out… Not likely but its worth a trying. I tried to move my jeep into the objective to not allow any other vechicles into that hex but failed to do so due to disruption. I was surrounded by Obergruppenfuhrer and he moved his men into the same hex. He tried to take me out but due to either the cover save or my 5/5 defense I stayed alive dispite the odds. Out of frustratation Obergruppenfuhrer opened fire with his brummbar. Onto my eagle and his own troops. Killing me but not his own luckly.
        My arguement is he had no honor in putting his own men at risk of death to win when he could of killed my unit by other means without risking death of his men. He did however win the battle, and I’ll give him that.



  • History is written by the victor.
    :evil:



  • It’s one of those situations where he won the game by doing it, so I think it’s obviously the right move to make. Losing with honor is still losing. Even groups that pride themselves on honor, like Japan, really had none during wartime. They treated POWs like garbage and raped 1000s of civilians in China.



  • Lets get the situation right. ALL units survived the bombardment amazingly. My Nashorn backed out of the hex and killed his Screaming Eagle next turn and he killed my Nashorn in return. No one was hurt in the Bombardment. This is a classic example of “friendly fire.”

    According to my tanks crew upon debriefing: They had no knowledge of a single sniper and a single officer on that hill when they began shelling. Only inteligence of a unit of paratroopers entering that terrain.

    It’s a pleasure to have INGSOC on this forum at last! Now it looks I can’t talk shit behind his back anymore. Welcome Buddy!!



  • Winning and honour are not nessesarily linked.  Ones own soldiers are often expended to win but it can’t be done honourably if you are willingly throwing away their lives if alternate means are available.



  • I agree with Audacity. However, being in the last turn of our game and having his unit in the objective, the smartest move was to bombard the space instead of giving him a chance to kill my men off and holding the position. (Both my first shots were from a sniper and a haupsterm fuhrer which failed. If he had killed one of my men that turn and then the other the next turn he would have won. Better to have the opportunity to bombard him twice than risk once and failing; thus losing the game assuming he would kill my men, one a turn. That was a safe assumption. Always assume you for the worst situation so your ready to respond accordingly if it happens. Not to say that you shouldn’t take risks. You HAVE to. I would have been taking a risk by not bombarding his unit.

    My opponent is just bitter he lost and trying to take away the glory of my 3 remaining units on the field to his “none.”

    UNDERSTANDABLE considering he has yet to defeat me. I’d be frusterated too but now he’s just reaching for the stars to dimish the glory of German Victory.

    Amazinglly, my bombardment didn’t kill a single unit on that hill. So three shots didn’t kill his Screaming Eagle. Finally the nearby Nashorn ended him. I did what was right to ensure victory the best of my ability. I’m not taking any risks “not shooting” when we’re in the last turn and he is in the objective. That’s ridiculous.



  • Unfortuantely this game doesn’t give points specifically for force preservation.  That I suppose is the advantage gained by the A&A campaign games (currently Guadacanal) that link the minis to the board game.  Then the points you get in a minis game are determined by the pieces on the larger strategic map.  Alternatively look at the hospital discussion again.

    There must be a better way for the minis commander to win without wasting his most valuable manpower.



  • @Obergruppenfuhrer:

    Lets get the situation right. ALL units survived the bombardment amazingly. My Nashorn backed out of the hex and killed his Screaming Eagle next turn and he killed my Nashorn in return. No one was hurt in the Bombardment. This is a classic example of “friendly fire.”

    Woah, hold on here.  You killed an SE Paratrooper with a Nashorn?

    Not THATS impressive! Now THATS impressive!



  • @Motdc:

    @Obergruppenfuhrer:

    Lets get the situation right. ALL units survived the bombardment amazingly. My Nashorn backed out of the hex and killed his Screaming Eagle next turn and he killed my Nashorn in return. No one was hurt in the Bombardment. This is a classic example of “friendly fire.”

    Woah, hold on here.  You killed an SE Paratrooper with a Nashorn?

    Not THATS impressive!

    I’m hoping you mean “now that’s impressive”. I’m assuming you did and thanks for the props! It was a very unlikely shot.  What it was, was a freakin miracle! After BOTH a sniper and the officer couldn’t kill an SE paratrooper, I bombarded with the Brummbar wich normally turns everything it hits into guts and dirt. EVERYONE LIVED. I was SO pissed. We go into overtime in our games if the objective is occupied by both armies which it was, so the Nashorn of all things killed him.

    My question is: I wasn’t even supposed to roll for my sniper being bombarded was I? He cant’ be attack becuase of superior camoulflage and the brummbar was at least 2 hexes, if not more away. And Can’t trumps CAN as far as I know. So we made a mistake even rolling for the Weirhmact expert sniper didn’t we?

    Now where is this hospital thread. I wanna check this out.



  • Brumbar cannot target the Sniper, but if some fool other soldier is there giving away the position the the Brumbar can target that unit and the poor sniper would get hit by the Blast.



  • Hey, you guys need to start playing online here.  We are always looking for new players here for A&A Minis!



  • @Motdc:

    Brumbar cannot target the Sniper, but if some fool other soldier is there giving away the position the the Brumbar can target that unit and the poor sniper would get hit by the Blast.

    Oh Ok!! Thanks for clearing that up! I want to play online but we’re so busy with our games right now. Sounds fun though!



  • Here’s a similar situation/ analogy:

    It was the last turn of the game meaning, I would lose if my men failed to secure the hill and they were failing, they hadn’t landed a single hit.

    If the Americans were attacking a German 88 mm position that was decimating their forces from afar, they sent in a few Rangers and a sniper and they failed to take out the 88mm’s which contiued to fire on American Armor and units that were needed to secure a bridge lets say, would it me wrong for the Americans, sensing they may lose with the gamble of relying on a few elite men who had failed to destroy the artillery postion in a timely manner, would it be wrong for them to mortar the 88 position, knowing full well, there was a chance of their men being hit?

    I say NO. Troops are an expendalble weapon of the state. What do you call the first wave of men into D-day? Expendable for a greater means. They knew full well the casualties would be immense. Did they decide to try and bomb the dug in Germans for weeks intsead of try and take the position by force? No. Bombing (which they DID do) was only half useful. They COULD have continued air strikes and continued to batter the coast with battleship batteries.

    They could have wasted all that time for (alternate means) but they didn’t. They meticulously prepared the largest scale seaborn invasion in history, knowing the first wave would suffer incredible losses but we would prevail through our numbers. Those men were exendable in that sense and they died with tremendous honor if you ask me.

    So you could relate the 88mm position analogy to my situation. Risk losing or mortar the postion with a better chance of doing damage knowing full well, a few american lives may be hit by the shellling. Soldiers must be used to WIN a war. They are (sadly) expendable in that sense. That doesn’t mean you slaughter your own men whenever convenient. You have to make choices that will lead to victory sometimes. The ends justify the means in my book. I won. Luckily, my men weren’t at all harmed. Being in the last turn, I did the made the most intelligent decision to give myself every chance of killing my opponent in the final moments of the game.



  • This subject is not black or white, it’s grey!  Each person must look within themselves to answer the question of self sacrifice for a cause greater than themselves.

    A commander must also make this decesion concerning his men. I’m sure Obergruppenfuhrer made the best decesion.

    Wow, we’re now talking philosophy!



  • National Socialism is about giving up some personal freedoms for the collective good of the state. A few friendly casualties to win the battle can be justified under those circumstances. Most countries had that philosophy back then, and I think it was better. The common good should be more important than the individual. Look at what helping the individual has gotten everyone? Invalids draining economies dry while weakening the gene pool. We’ll all end up a bunch of crippled, food-starved morons at this rate. Natural selection FTW.



  • @Ducky:

    National Socialism is about giving up some personal freedoms for the collective good of the state. A few friendly casualties to win the battle can be justified under those circumstances. Most countries had that philosophy back then, and I think it was better. The common good should be more important than the individual. Look at what helping the individual has gotten everyone? Invalids draining economies dry while weakening the gene pool. We’ll all end up a bunch of crippled, food-starved morons at this rate. Natural selection FTW.

    :lol: Omg. Thank you. AbWorsham and Ducky to the rescue. Ducky, what a politically incorrect, arcane, “predjudice statement.” Don’t you know it’s your fault the state came in and took ma baby!  :lol: I can’t believe you had the guts to just flat out say that. That rocks!! I feel the same way man. If you voice opinions like that in Minneapolis, your a nut case and FAR left people will literally start screaming at you and “about the war” and I’ve heard so much I just wanna vomit. On them.



  • I KNOW that everyone is voting (ABWorsham, I’m looking at you). Unless its closed then nevermind.



  • Please keep the thread on topic top to the forum its in.

    The moderators are pretty sctrict on this kind of thing, and since I hang out alot in these Mini forums, I dont want the apple-cart tipped.

    There is a general discussion area for social commentary.

    Thanks guys!

    :mrgreen:

    PS - I’ll be glad to teach any of you A&A Miniatures play-by-post when you are ready!  Just PM me



  • WOW…

    Opergruppenfuhrer, in my opinion you handled yourself with excellence.  It’s very rare to see a battle commander be able to explain his actions like a politician.

    “The intelligence reports were only aware of an SE Para in the area, so the shellings were justified…”

    WOW…

    I couldn’t agree more.

    Yeah Yeah to Natural selection too. 
    too many slackers out there… :evil:



  • At the end of the day the fact of the matter is that this is only a game, and winning is the only focus!!



  • But on some level games mirror our real life attitudes



  • @Audacity:

    But on some level games mirror our real life attitudes

    That is a very introspective point. The games do bring out traits in our personality and that’s why these dicussions are so interesting in how they turn into moral and philosophical debates. It’s a good thing for us to go with it and challenge each others views because I know that I’m learning a lot by participating in these dicussions.

    ….And thank you Der Kommander. You honor my SS battalion with your unsolicited praise. We won a very one sided battle last night. One sided in the sense that more than 10 units and 2 tanks remained of my force to my enemies complete decimation. It was fear that lost this opponent his battle. He diverted his forces (US) west; away from the objective and the bulk of my force and even pulled valuable resources away from the field in fear of my Tiger 1. These actions set us up for an aggressive stance the entire game.

    Anyways – I really enjoy what everybody brought to this debate which is really about morals and codes of conduct, not Axis and Allies miniatures.

    Speaking of which, If you know anyone that wants to trade German stuff for my Japenese army, let me know.



  • @Obergruppenfuhrer:

    @Audacity:

    But on some level games mirror our real life attitudes

    That is a very introspective point. The games do bring out traits in our personality and that’s why these dicussions are so interesting in how they turn into moral and philosophical debates. It’s a good thing for us to go with it and challenge each others views because I know that I’m learning a lot by participating in these dicussions.

    ….And thank you Der Kommander. You honor my SS battalion with your unsolicited praise. We won a very one sided battle last night. One sided in the sense that more than 10 units and 2 tanks remained of my force to my enemies complete decimation. It was fear that lost this opponent his battle. He diverted his forces (US) west; away from the objective and the bulk of my force and even pulled valuable resources away from the field in fear of my Tiger 1. These actions set us up for an aggressive stance the entire game.

    Anyways – I really enjoy what everybody brought to this debate which is really about morals and codes of conduct, not Axis and Allies miniatures.

    Speaking of which, If you know anyone that wants to trade German stuff for my Japenese army, let me know.

    I had the funniest fight ever not that long ago, speaking of German-asskickery. I beat a Soviet Army with my Germany in 1 turn. I had 2 Veteran Tigers, 2 SS Elite Infantry Platoons, and a Fallschirmjager… He took a bad selection of pieces and it was on a wide-open map. I killed more than half of his guys in my first assault phase, and all he managed to do was disrupt 2 of my infantry on his. He surrendered because he had a better chance of winning the lottery than winning that match.



  • That’s freakin awesome Ducky!  :lol:



  • I tell my kids, the ones that claim winning does not matter, that life is much like a game, people win and people loose-except the stakes are higher.


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