Karelia Stack G1?



  • This assumes USSR1 has taken West Russia but did not attempt Ukraine.

    I move all available infantry and tanks to Karelia (this includes 1i1t from WEU by TP). That should be 6 tanks 9 infantry.

    1 infantry is left in Ukraine. All other available units across Europe are sent to Eastern Europe (7i1a2t). All the air lands there as well after hitting the Gibraltar BB and any exposed targets.

    I use the Mediterranean TP usually to ferry troops from Libya to France so I have a total of 4i1a1t there.

    Finally, I build 8 tanks in Germany.

    Now I have three Army Groups:
          Group 1: Karelia stack and EEU tanks. Can hit ARC or WRU.
          Group 2: EEU infantry/art and GER tanks. Can hit BEL or UKR.
          Group 3: EEU airforce. Can hit ARC, WRU, BEL or UKR.

    The important thing is Russia cannot defend 4 territories against these two stacks. On G2 I can conquer the weaker territory with each of these stacks. Because the rear stack can pass through the territory held by the front stack, on G3 I can send 16 German tanks, 6 fighters, 1 bomber, and some infantry to hit either Caucasus or Russia on G3.

    How would you counter this opening as USSR/Allies?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I can already tell you that there are some old crows on here who will bemoan the fact that you did not sink the British Destroyer in SZ 15 nor took Egypt (leaving England with an extra armor and fighter that can be annoying.)

    I am not one.

    Honestly, I think this does leave your Western flank a bit exposed, but I see no reason it shouldn’t work to roll up Russia in short order.  Just do not assume that Ukraine is not being destroyed by Russia.  It’s common practice for many of us to attack Ukraine on Russia 1 (so common many players are now putting their bid in Ukraine to stop Russia.)



  • Hi Jennifer,

    We do not play with bids, so the Anglo-Egypt attack is rarely played and Germany often loses Africa early.

    I forgot to mention that I move a sacrificial boat up in the North Sea (or sometimes the whole fleet if I’m doing Unbaltic) to stop Brits from doing a suicide attack on Karelia softening my stack up.

    Even so, I think the best counter to this strat may be that the Russkies have enough materiel to wipe out Karelia on R2? It depends what they build.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    If I moved to block, it would be a submarine only and the other ships would go to SZ 7. (Submarine from SZ 8, Submarine, Transport, Destroyer) in hopes of luring the British into attacking and getting hit worse than they expect.


    Edit:

    I can already see an issue where the Entire German navy is sunk on UK 1.

    With only Submarine, Transport, Destroyer in SZ 5 you stand a very slim chance against England’s 2 Fighters, Bomber.
    With Gibraltar unconquered, England could easily decide to just sink your Submarine, Transport, Battleship with Destroyer, 2 Fighters, Bomber.  Especially if your fighters are all in E. Europe.

    Also, with short defenses in the West, what’s to stop England from sinking the SZ 13 fleet and taking W. Europe?  Unless you move the ground troops from S. Europe to W. Europe (that would be the infantry and artillery, not the armor.)  But even then, I think it may be too extended.



  • 3 UK fighters could attack the battleship/trans (1 from Egypt), and Germany could use the sub to attack the UK trans off ECAN to keep UK from attacking WEur.  Battleship, 2 fighter, bomber take out the Gib. battleship.  And he did show that the 2inf/1art from SEur were going to WEur, by saying he had 4inf,1art,1tank there.

    With no bid, if Russia takes WRus on R1 with at least 8inf/2art (neglecting tanks), and buys at least 1 tank on R1, they can reclaim karelia on R2 with decent odds, 2-3 tanks surviving on avg.  And obviously if Russia buys 2 tanks they only need 6-7 inf in Wrus, buying 3 tanks means they only need 5-6 inf (plus the 2art).

    Edit to clarify sloppy writing

    More Edit - As UK I would probably just land in Norway and buy 1-2 trans + ground, maybe a carrier for the future.  Send the UK air to sz 13 plus Egypt fighter and sz 15 destroyer.  You have nothing to counter his North Sea fleet with, since it’s all in EEur.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    If Russia is only hitting W. Russia then you should expect 9 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 4 Armor in W. Russia.  If they split between W. Russia and Belorussia (which drops your stack in Karelia by 3 infantry) then W. Russia probably has 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 4 Armor.

    If Russia bought 3 Infantry, 3 Armor in Russia 1 that means they have a very large army that can attack Karelia on Russia 2.  Just a thought. (I know most players get 8 infantry, but that is SOO bland in my mind.)



  • I LIKE a Karelia Stack as Germany on G1.

    But there are some caveats to doing so.

    First off, Russia has to have a snowball’s chance in hell of destroying my stack on R2.
    Second, I have secured Egypt
    Third, I have sunk the UK BB Off Gibraltar.
    Fourth I have to control Belo and Ukraine.

    If ANY of those prerequisites are missing, then the stack is in Eastern not Karelia.



  • switch, I understand your 1st and 4th prereq’s, but what do 2 and 3 have to do with whether the stack’s in EE or Karelia?

    Granted, I also find Egypt and the Gib battleship virtual musts, but I don’t understand what they have to do with where your European ground stack is.



  • Because if I leave Egypt in UK’s hands, then my back door is WIDE OPEN, and that means that I want my ARM in range of Italy.  They are if they are in Eastern, they are not if they are in Karelia.

    And that UK BB simply adds to that back-door threat, also meaning I want to keep my main defender and punch units a little closer to the vest as Germany.



  • Could just as easily move the newly built units from Germany to SEur on G2 as the EE tanks, though.



  • OK, a Karelia G1 stack is very desirable if it can survive (no 3tnk Russian build). It can be fortified in following turns (G2 land fighters, G3 more troops arrive etc).

    But the real ‘forking’ pressure comes from a German stack surviving in Ukraine ! How do you prefer to go about shifting the mass there ? -esp. if Allied landing threats are starting to multiply on turns 2-5.

    • retreat to EEU with concomitant tank build, next turn push to Ukraine.
    • through Belorus
    • direct advance to WRU (if possible to defeat Allied stack there, or Allies retreated and Germans can survive counterattacks there)


  • Question 1: is an 8-tank build still worth it if you can’t stack safely in Karelia? I would say no - if you can’t threaten a quick-kill of Russia then better to build infantry and fighters to trade territory. Or maybe inf and a bomber and stack air in WEU to threaten Allied shipping.

    Question 2: How do you destroy both British Med fleets and take Egypt, if Axis has no bid? If you have no bid, what do you hit?



  • sz 8 sub + ~4 fighters takes out sz 13 battleship, sz 14 trans picks up 1 inf + 1 tank or art, drops off in egypt from sz 15 with battleship (can send 1 air there to make sure you don’t lose anything), egypt gets 1-2 air + the 2 inf and 2 art/arm.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    That’s kind of the point though.  I don’t do a Russian build of 8 infantry on Round 1 for that exact reason, having the extra tanks helps throughout the entire game in keeping Germany boxed in a little.

    And if I am not hitting Ukraine, and sometimes I don’t, it’s because I am hitting Belorussia and W. Russia or just stacking W. Russia like a mad woman (expect 9 infantry, 2 artillery, 4 armor, AA Gun in W. Russia with Russia having lost 2 infantry in the attack) with 3 armor in Moscow to back them up. (This of course results in Caucasus being taken by Germany on G1, but that’s a minor nuisance in the game I think.)

    That means Germany has to be able to repel 9 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 7 Armor, 2 Fighters in Karelia and I just don’t see them being able to do so.  I’m assuming 9 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 6 Armor (with none lost taking Karelia and two units transported from W. Europe to Karelia).

    I have Russia surviving that attack with a 93% chance (6 Armor, 2 Fighters left.)  Now sure, Germany will have 8 Armor and their fighters to attack that, but do you really want to trade 8 Armor and some fighters against 6 armor, aa gun if England’s dumping troops into Norway (which you have to leave abandoned) or worse, invaded W. Europe with Americans ready to land next round again?


    For the record, that assumes neither Ukraine nor Belorussia were taking on Russia 1 meeting Switch’s points 2 and 3 I am also assuming the Battleship off Gibraltar died with the loss of one German submarine (safe assumption) and that Egypt fell on Germany 1 leaving 1 armor behind (taking Infantry/Armor from S. Europe for the assault.)  That meets all 4 of Switch’s points.

    I am also assuming England landed and liberated Egypt on UK 1 and that England sunk the SZ 5 fleet with 2 fighters, bomber (since the original poster mentioned he was moving a ship to SZ 3 to block England from softening Germany) surviving with 1 Fighter, Bomber at least and that Norway was invaded iwth 2 Infantry, 2 Armor. (England’s buy would probably be Aircraft Carrier, Submarine, 2 Infantry if SZ 5 was not attacked, 2 artillery in place of the submarine if it was attacked and cleared.)


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