Do Jews Have a Right to Representation? Some Think Not.



  • @The:

    September 23, 2002|4:31 PM

    Jews and Right in an Alliance
    by Philip Weiss

    …I didn’t reckon on the strength of the Zionist lobby. As it demonstrated by helping to bankroll successful challengers to two incumbent Congressmen who had spoken out for Palestinian rights—Cynthia McKinney of Georgia and Earl Hilliard of Alabama—the Zionist lobby is powerful and focused.

    …Even the words “Jewish lobby” stick in the throat. Earlier this year, Chris Matthews devoted a segment on Hardball to … why European nations have such a different position on the Middle East than the United States does. The segment was moronic. It ignored a social and political reality that Mr. Matthews, a political veteran, knows damn well: Jews are empowered in American society in a way that they are not in Europe. Indeed, Jewish money may be the most important segment of Democrat Party fund-raising.

    Last year, on a trip to the Middle East, Times columnist Thomas Friedman also dismissed the issue. He said that an Arab journalist approached him … and … asked … about all the Jews in the media in the United States. … “Wow,” he wrote later, before commenting somewhat along the lines of Can you believe the conspiracy theories that have taken root in the Arab world?

    It’s only understandable that these theories have taken root. Jews represent an American elite. They have money, they have power, and Ariel Sharon has explicitly called upon them to use their influence over the American political process.

    You’re just not allowed to say so in mixed company. Talking about “Jewish influence” reminds people of the Nazis. Abe Foxman is ready at a moment’s notice to insist on the Jewish identity as victim.

    The problem is that the Zionist lobby is too important not to talk about. It’s a significant institution, and its moods and tone affect all of our interests. …writer Michael Massing in The American Prospect earlier this year, … showed that the lobby’s goal is to make sure there is “no daylight” between the American government and the Israeli government.

    And as the Israeli government has gotten tougher, so has the lobby…

    Hmm. Could it be that the Holocaust, Part II, continues in Europe and the Middle East? One group eliminates the problem while the other is still eliminating the guiltof 60+ years. No wonder names have been eliminated from some monuments to the murdered Jews. No names, no faces, and no feelings makes it easier to forget.

    Nobodies got clean hands. Not even you. - Xi
    –--------------------------------------------------
    “Take the log out’n yer own eye afore ye try taken the toothpick out’n sumun eltses!” - A famous logger(Paul Bunyan, I think)



  • my hands are pretty clean.
    some days i wash them for around 10 minutes.
    (and i don’t suffer from OCD)



  • Of course Jews deserve equal rep. Just not more than anyone else.



  • Some people begrudge them the right because, since they are rich in America(as in the article quoted), they bought the election. However, the man with the money often wins. But, if we think back to the last two Republican primary seasons we will remember, this ain’t always so.
    –---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    “I am of course confident that I will fulfil my tasks as a
    writer in all circumstances—from my grave even more successfully
    and more irrefutably than in my lifetime. No one can bar the road
    to truth, and to advance its cause I am prepared to accept even
    death. But may it be that repeated lessons will finally teach us
    not to stop the writer’s pen during his lifetime? At no time has
    this ennobled our history.” - Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Russian novelist.
    open letter, 5/16/1967, to the Fourth Soviet Writers’ Congress.
    Repr. In Solzhenitsyn: A Documentary Record, ed.
    Leopold Labedz (1970). Problems of Communism (July-Aug. 1968).

    Confidence is a great thing to have. Some people are disliked for their confidence. - Xi



  • Names being taken off the monument of lost jews?!?! Big Brother is watching you 😮



  • i do not think we should take ne rights away from jew, or give them extra power, just treat them like we treat Spiks or Blacks or WHites . but i do think that they should publisize that whole Jewish Media Conspiracy thing though 🙂



  • I heard some talk show host say it made sense for the Jewish Liberal Media to cover the Middle East from the Palestinian perspective. There are more Arabs and Muslims watching tv . Whoa! I wasn’t sure whether he meant just that there were more alive or that the Jews would be working while the Arab/Muslims would be unemployed, at home, and making bombs. - Xi
    –----------------------
    “Learn to listen. Opportunity could be knocking
    at your door very softly.” - Frank Tyger

    Wad u say? I can’t hear you for all the knockin’ at my door! - Xi



  • Spiks?



  • Rich Jews? You people fall right into the sterotype. I’m a Jew and I’m not rich, far from it in fact. In the Holocaust the Jews in Europe mostly were not rich, they either didnt beleive it would be as bad as it was, or they couldnt afford to get out. There are many stereotypes against Jews. Jews are the most hated people in the world, more than any other group.

    Anti-semitism is on the rise again. In Quebec rocks were thrown when Benjamin Netanyahu tried to speak. Kosher slaughtering is illegal in 4 European countries and there have been flare ups in Europe, particularly in France.

    The Holocaust is being forgotten because it was so long ago. It’s like the pogroms in Russia that killed 3000 people in a day. They were so long ago that we take it lightly. That is what the Holocaust is becoming.

    As Herzl put it, the Jews are hated by the right for being revolutionaries such as Karl Marx. The Jews are seen by the right as radicals that want to change society.

    The Jews are hated by the left because they are seen as traditionalists who refuse to give up their traditions and have lots of money and wealth.



  • As Herzl put it, the Jews are hated by the right for being revolutionaries such as Karl Marx.

    Ha, I remember back then there was a lot of “hate bashing” that Karl Marx was in fact a Jew. Right… :roll:

    The Jews are hated by the left because they are seen as traditionalists who refuse to give up their traditions and have lots of money and wealth.

    But didn’t you just say, “Rich Jews? You people fall right into the sterotype. In the Holocaust the Jews in Europe mostly were not rich…”



  • Not false at all, jew seem to be the universal bouc émissaire of the occident (…and middle east).

    @EmuGod:

    Jews are the most hated people in the world, more than any other group.

    Yes, but jew don’t think it’s normal because they are special, like those christian martyr ? Just a question…

    Anti-semitism is on the rise again.

    Maybe, but it’s still not as high as it was, and some are calling on anti-semitism a little fast…

    In Quebec rocks were thrown when Benjamin Netanyahu tried to speak.

    Well, i don’t call that anti-semitism, there was a manifestation to say he was not welcome in University (i don’t remember which one, but i’ll ask my father-in-law), they only did throw rocks at ONE (ONE) windows if i remember right…. Sure i am not for this kind of violence, but the manifestaion was justified, sure Netanyahu honored the term of the Hebron agreement, but his attitude towards the palestinians was brutal, he did not concede a lots of things.

    and there have been flare ups in Europe, particularly in France.

    Like what ? You know we have problem here too with islamic extremist, and if you look a little closer, you’ll see we had lot of manifestation of sympathy towards the jews. Not that there is no anti-semitism…

    http://www.sofres.com/etudes/pol/081101_conflit_r.htm

    As Herzl put it, the Jews are hated by the right for being revolutionaries such as Karl Marx. The Jews are seen by the right as radicals that want to change society.

    The Jews are hated by the left because they are seen as traditionalists who refuse to give up their traditions and have lots of money and wealth.

    I think there is a social reason, not a spiritual one, to anti-semitism, it’s propably why people from all classes and most ideology are “using” the jew as bouc émissaire. Jews are impossible to assimilate, they remain jew, they have a different religion and an interpretation of their people that can be considered a little egocentric. So they are often attacked, for no real reason, they are just jew, the universal bouc émissaire… quite sad.



  • @FinsterniS:

    In Quebec rocks were thrown when Benjamin Netanyahu tried to speak.

    Well, i don’t call that anti-semitism, there was a manifestation to say he was not welcome in University (i don’t remember which one, but i’ll ask my father-in-law), they only did throw rocks at ONE (ONE) windows if i remember right…. Sure i am not for this kind of violence, but the manifestaion was justified, sure Netanyahu honored the term of the Hebron agreement, but his attitude towards the palestinians was brutal, he did not concede a lots of things.

    This was at Concordia, and more than just a window got broken. There was a far greater violation here - the muzzling of the freedom of speech. Basically a bunch of Palestinians residing in Quebec (few of them actually students of the university except of course for the minority holding the political power of the student union) stormed the university, causing a riot that prevented BN from speaking at a private engagement. Their sole purpose was annihilation of freedom of speech. Not their own, of course. They are Palestinians, and should be permitted all of the freedoms to protest and prevent other people from exercising their rights, n’est pas? Never mind that Quebec is not traditionally a bastion of tolerance to begin with - may Jacques forgive you if you are not white, and do not speak French as a first language.
    Viva le Action Democratique!



  • Never mind that Quebec is not traditionally a bastion of tolerance to begin with - may Jacques forgive you if you are not white, and do not speak French as a first language.

    I’ve heard very few french being as agressive towards the english as you are towards the french. You are not an isolated case, i’ve read some paper, written on West of canada, they have nothing to envy to any racist. They hit on french like hell, calling them frog, racist, even nazi on some case, and when quebec want separation, they are all on their knees, claiming they love quebec…. Make me think of Stoiber and his politic with the Turk, it’s pure hypocrisy.



  • @Xi:

    Hmm. Could it be that the Holocaust, Part II, continues in Europe and the Middle East? One group eliminates the problem while the other is still eliminating the guiltof 60+ years. No wonder names have been eliminated from some monuments to the murdered Jews. No names, no faces, and no feelings makes it easier to forget.

    Nobodies got clean hands. Not even you.

    Saying the holocaust contiunues is strange. Either you have a wrong perception of what happens now, or what happened then. The situation is very different, and a too early call of “a 2nd holocaust” contra-productive.

    2nd: How do europeans “eliminate the guilt of 60+ years”? Who is erasing names from the monuments?
    Just like Fin said (even though i do not fully agree with that, just as i do agree with some of Xi’s points on that topic), blaming ppl as “anti-semites” frequently makes it a blunt sword, and that could prove helpful to real antisemites: if everyone is called antisemite, how do you call real antisemites? You kind of “force” them into “acceptance by the people”.



  • Just like Fin said (even though i do not fully agree with that, just as i do agree with some of Xi’s points on that topic), blaming ppl as “anti-semites” frequently makes it a blunt sword, and that could prove helpful to real antisemites: if everyone is called antisemite, how do you call real antisemites? You kind of “force” them into “acceptance by the people”.

    I never said we were clean, antisemitism is a real problem, and most of the time people don’t even know why they hate jew.



  • @FinsterniS:

    Never mind that Quebec is not traditionally a bastion of tolerance to begin with - may Jacques forgive you if you are not white, and do not speak French as a first language.

    I’ve heard very few french being as agressive towards the english as you are towards the french. You are not an isolated case, i’ve read some paper, written on West of canada, they have nothing to envy to any racist. They hit on french like hell, calling them frog, racist, even nazi on some case, and when quebec want separation, they are all on their knees, claiming they love quebec…. Make me think of Stoiber and his politic with the Turk, it’s pure hypocrisy.

    That’s funny, I live here in Canada and when the french wanted to separate the majority of the non french Canadian were fine with seperation.
    The problem was that Quebec didn’t want to be their own country, they just wanted special status in Canada.
    Which, of course, no one on the outside is going to go for.

    It was just a small percentage of French-Canadians in Quebec who really wanted the changes. Most of which were people with powerful political positions.



  • @Mr:

    @FinsterniS:

    Never mind that Quebec is not traditionally a bastion of tolerance to begin with - may Jacques forgive you if you are not white, and do not speak French as a first language.

    I’ve heard very few french being as agressive towards the english as you are towards the french. You are not an isolated case, i’ve read some paper, written on West of canada, they have nothing to envy to any racist. They hit on french like hell, calling them frog, racist, even nazi on some case, and when quebec want separation, they are all on their knees, claiming they love quebec…. Make me think of Stoiber and his politic with the Turk, it’s pure hypocrisy.

    That’s funny, I live here in Canada and when the french wanted to separate the majority of the non french Canadian were fine with seperation.
    The problem was that Quebec didn’t want to be their own country, they just wanted special status in Canada.
    Which, of course, no one on the outside is going to go for.

    It was just a small percentage of French-Canadians in Quebec who really wanted the changes. Most of which were people with powerful political positions.

    i, of course, agree with Mr. Ghoul.
    And Fin, of course you’re not going to hear of French being aggressive against the English. You are being fed one source of information. Even 60 minutes did a long clip on the intolerance towards English culture in Quebec. Also although i did know some people who referred to the French as frogs, i hardly believe that is soley a “western Canadian” phenomenon, and little to do with Quebec, but rather an anti-French sentiment.
    With regards to us referring to them as racist and nazi’s, again i believe you are hearing one side if you believe that this is so far from the truth, particularly with regards to Quebec politicians.
    I hope that unless Quebec forms any kind of a stable relationship with the rest of Canada (as it might under Action Democratique) that it does separate. It would be best for both countries (except, of course, for the Maritimes and again - if Canada is divisible, so is Quebec). We might finally see our economy stabilize, less Western money going to appease Quebeccers into staying in federation, and our dollar (eventually) return to an appropriate level.
    Having said this, i do like la belle province. Montreal and Quebec city are beautiful, and many of the people are decent. Unless you in your foolishness carry a Canadian flag. Try that in Quebec city, primarily around St. Jean Baptiste day. If you manage to live through the day, i would be most interested in your experiences.



  • I love how whenever a Jewish person is critized, they accuse someone of being an Anti-Semi.

    Look, theres 10x more hate towards Muslims in this country than Jews. There are 16 million Jews and 20 Million Muslims living in the US, and the Jews have 10x more political power. Why were people throwing rocks at Netanyaho? Probably because if he becomes Prime Minister again he’ll be responsibly for the deaths of hundreds. Oh, and he’s a hero in Israel, worse than Sharon.

    Jews, and most minorities, need to shut up and be happy they have more rights than the majority. One of the few things I like about Bush is his ideas toward Minorities “We need to make sure they have equal rights as us all, but not more”.

    Wake up, your the least likely group in this hemisphere for there to be another Halocaust against. I live in probably the most Jewish Area of the country. And our teachers are so afraid of being sued by AA that every single registered Jew I can think of in my school is in all Honors class and never gets in trouble, especially when they are due for it like us all. Most of them don’t deserve to be in the classes they are.

    Jews are MORE THAN EQUAL to the majority in this country. Get over it.



  • @Yanny:

    I love how whenever a Jewish person is critized, they accuse someone of being an Anti-Semi.

    Look, theres 10x more hate towards Muslims in this country than Jews. There are 16 million Jews and 20 Million Muslims living in the US, and the Jews have 10x more political power. Why were people throwing rocks at Netanyaho? Probably because if he becomes Prime Minister again he’ll be responsibly for the deaths of hundreds. Oh, and he’s a hero in Israel, worse than Sharon.

    Jews, and most minorities, need to shut up and be happy they have more rights than the majority. One of the few things I like about Bush is his ideas toward Minorities “We need to make sure they have equal rights as us all, but not more”.

    Wake up, your the least likely group in this hemisphere for there to be another Halocaust against. I live in probably the most Jewish Area of the country. And our teachers are so afraid of being sued by AA that every single registered Jew I can think of in my school is in all Honors class and never gets in trouble, especially when they are due for it like us all. Most of them don’t deserve to be in the classes they are.

    Jews are MORE THAN EQUAL to the majority in this country. Get over it.

    16 million Jews in the US alone? That’s quite interestig, especially considering that there are only 15 million Jews in the entire world, with around 6 million of them in Israel.



  • And Fin, of course you’re not going to hear of French being aggressive against the English. You are being fed one source of information. Even 60 minutes did a long clip on the intolerance towards English culture in Quebec.

    I am sure the english are very tolerant towards Quebec, you just 2 or 3 time said completly racist things about Quebec, you even refer Mr Parizeau as being nazy, if that is not ignorance i don’t know what it is. And you, you are not fed up with one source i suppose, you are pure objectivity ?

    Unless you in your foolishness carry a Canadian flag. Try that in Quebec city, primarily around St. Jean Baptiste day. If you manage to live through the day, i would be most interested in your experiences.

    As a matter of fact i’ve seen lots of Canadian flag in Montreal, not on Quebec (a very beatifull city), but in montreal yes…



  • Jacques Parizeau a nazi? I don’t think so. Maybe a small f fascist. He blamed the minorities in Quebec for the loss of the 95 referendum.



  • There are more than 15 million Jews in the world. When I find my Almanac I’ll give you a number.



  • I’ll find my Jewish resources and ask Jewish professors and consult books. Believe me there are only 15 million Jews in the world. 0.25% of the world’s population are Jews. It seems as though there are more because the JEws still make an impacton the world.



  • @Yanny:

    I love how whenever a Jewish person is critized, they accuse someone of being an Anti-Semi.

    Look, theres 10x more hate towards Muslims in this country than Jews. There are 16 million Jews and 20 Million Muslims living in the US, and the Jews have 10x more political power. Why were people throwing rocks at Netanyaho? Probably because if he becomes Prime Minister again he’ll be responsibly for the deaths of hundreds. Oh, and he’s a hero in Israel, worse than Sharon.

    I need to be careful here, as i’ve as many Jewish friends as Muslim friends, but with regards to your “10x more hate” - an unquanitfiable statistic, but assuming it is correct, i’m curious - how many Jews have targetted Americans for violence - bombings, etc.? How many Jews have contributed to the economic, political and social wellbeing in America. My guess is that those numbers are inverse nearly to the extreme ends. Now granted, one may very easily say the same about the vast majority of Muslims as well, but it’s hard to turn a blind eye to the hate targetted towards Americans.

    Wake up, your the least likely group in this hemisphere for there to be another Halocaust against. I live in probably the most Jewish Area of the country. And our teachers are so afraid of being sued by AA that every single registered Jew I can think of in my school is in all Honors class and never gets in trouble, especially when they are due for it like us all. Most of them don’t deserve to be in the classes they are.

    Jews are MORE THAN EQUAL to the majority in this country. Get over it.

    I certainly hope you are correct about the “holocaust” prediction, however that is not the Jewish people’s main concern today. Far too many of their synagogues are firebombed, their day cares riddled with bullets, their rabbis and members killed in the streets for being “Jewish”. And not so much by Muslims as by white Americans.
    And i don’t believe that Jews are more than equal to the majority, except in terms of their values and they way they appreciate them. Few cultures seem to value education, family, hard work and enterprise to the same extent as the Jews, and their success in America is incredible, particularly given the fact that so many started off with so little as refugees.
    I don’t know why i’m such a strong Jewish sympathizer. It must be because i relate these people to my own to a degree. Either that, or i’ve been blessed with a profound sense of their history.



  • @Fin:

    And Fin, of course you’re not going to hear of French being aggressive against the English. You are being fed one source of information. Even 60 minutes did a long clip on the intolerance towards English culture in Quebec.

    I am sure the english are very tolerant towards Quebec, you just 2 or 3 time said completly racist things about Quebec, you even refer Mr Parizeau as being nazy, if that is not ignorance i don’t know what it is. And you, you are not fed up with one source i suppose, you are pure objectivity ?

    Unless you in your foolishness carry a Canadian flag. Try that in Quebec city, primarily around St. Jean Baptiste day. If you manage to live through the day, i would be most interested in your experiences.

    As a matter of fact i’ve seen lots of Canadian flag in Montreal, not on Quebec (a very beatifull city), but in montreal yes…

    If i said completely racist things about Quebec, and considering my own sense of honesty and integrity, then either i am speaking from false belief - unlikely given the time i have spent in Quebec and seen with my own eyes what happens there, or else i am telling the truth. Frankly, i’m not even remembering exactly what i said which is so racist, but it is very likely true and not likely to be a stereotype.
    As for my sources, they come from many places. Admittedly due to my own poor French skills, not directly from the French media (it’s typically translated for me).
    As for Parizeau - to belief something is true or did happen is not so ignorant as to believe something is not true or did not happen. Does ignorance about something mean i’m going to make it up? Thankfully the man has finally been discarded to the waste-baskets of history. He would be scary if he acceded to true power.
    Finally you are right. Montreal is a great city, and it is a Canadian gem. I’ve always said that. Quebec city too is a beautiful city, and a historical treasure. Just hide your flag and your federalism there on St. Jean Baptiste day, and you’ll make it through the day.


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