Operation: Sealion

They should have jumped into it in late July right on the heals of French collapse. The men from Dunkirk were in no mood to fight a mere 3 weeks after defeat, and  Germany only needed to push a little to get them to surrender. Hitler should have prepared the possibility of the war not ending when french fell, because france had no clout in the world anymore by that time. Hitler should have been building those barges in 1939, so it took time to build them.

Time was working always against Hitler, and he didn’t adjust his plans to conform to changing circumstances.

They didn’t need to knock out the RAF in order to land, but instead needed control of the air space over the invasion, and IMO the so called “blitz” was just an attempt by Hitler to save england, because Hitler really liked England to stay solvent in order to maintain control of parts of the world that Hitler could not plant his flag on. Hitler favored cooperation and accommodation with England and wanted to give the British people time to adjust to the idea of Germany in control over Europe like a predecessor to the E.U. only exacting political control as well.

So Hitler tried to bomb the will to resist out of the British people, and that failed so he tried to isolate it from its friends by sacking Russia.

I can’t vote there are to many variables.

1. If Hitler had listened to his generals they would have kept bombing RAF bases instead of London.

2. If Germany Sealioned the UK right after the fall of France who’s to say that the US wouldn’t have got ground troops involved sooner.  Even if it was just a security force to occupy GB.

Who knows what could have happened.

LT

I think that the world would be a very different place today if Britain had fallen.

I just spoke at length on this matter in the Minatures Discussion board on the “What if you were the Germans” poll regarding Leningrad.

I think if the RAF would have been crushed and Hitler hadn’t diverted all air efforts towards civilian targets as a result of his rage after a few bombs fell on Berlin one night, Sea Lion would have gone through. They WOULD have taken the beach head with air support but the British would have fought city to city, building to building. Just as the Germans did in Berlin.

The UK would have fallen but only surrendered after every major city had been fought for “building to building.” This would have been at a tremendous cost to the Nazi resources but would have prevented the US from sending the B-17’s and other air support that allowed us to attack fortress europe at close proximity. D-day would have never happened. However this exendature would have put the Eastern Front under tremendous duress from lack of manpower, air support and supplies.

I think the Germans would have recovered however once they set up shop in Great Britain. They would have been fighting against one less powerful front. The very allied front that took air supperiority from them, pulled valuable resources from the East and bombed their industrial heart into oblivion; setting the stage for the invasion of Normandy.

I cannot vote, but I suspect that following the failure of Sea Lion, sometime in October or November of 1940, Hitler is shot, and the Germans start frantically negotiating with the British to clear their backs before the Russians attack.

@timerover51:

I cannot vote, but I suspect that following the failure of Sea Lion, sometime in October or November of 1940, Hitler is shot, and the Germans start frantically negotiating with the British to clear their backs before the Russians attack.

Yeah that would have been nice if he were shot but Goerring was next in command. Uh. That fat ass was SO lazy. Now if Rommel took full power, the whole Riech would have been a different place to live that didn’t persecute anyone. One of the main problems the Nazis always had was no central leadership militarily speaking. So Hilter (for instace) would settle arguments with Weirmacht and SS High Command by making extremely some poor decision. Then to make matters worse, he would continue to meddle with the battle plans instead of trusting some of the most brilliant strategists in all of Europe.

If Goering was in command ( as per Hitlers decree) Both the army and other branches of government (SS) would get rid of him within a weeks time. Probably a prominent general would emerge to take over or Heydrich would usurp power from under everybody.

:-o
Hitler assassinated!
I believe that Herr Hitler was the neuclear fuel that powered the war machine of conquest. Without him at the heart of everything I don’t think the rest of the leaders/followers of the Nazi regime had the will/fortitude to continue the war, and I think that they would have used his removal as a bid to a ceasefire.

It depends on what year. Of course if your talking about 1945 then probably yes

1942-3 i think they fight on

Very good point Imperious Leader. I think Hitler was the fuel of the regime, however Goebbels was doing an amazing job with the propaganda. I think if Hitler was shot during the Battle of Britain, (after Sea Lion was too late) They would have closed that front and negotiated peace and adressed Russia with full force which is what they should have done. If Hitler was shot prior to the first bombs that fell on Berlin, the very bombs that caused him to divert air strikes aimed at ship yards and RAF fields, Britain would have been taken, but at a high cost. They should have left England alone after they took france. Russia was the real enemy if you ask me.

This is an awesome debate! I feel priviledged to finally discuss such matters with others who know enough about the war to bring such insightful topics and points to the table.

I formally apologize about all the grammatical errors in my last post. I was in a hurry. Being an aspiring writer, there’s nothing more embarassing to me.

I am nearly 100% sure that if Hitler was killed before 1941, the German Reich would never had invaded Russia. I think they would have made an accommodation with them to carve up British assets in the middle east. If this was amenable to Stalin and Molotov that would have been enough to prevent Stalin from considering his preemptive invasion of Germany in 1941 because the fear of what Hitler was telling his people in his book would have been removed. But once UK and her colonies were dispatched and nothing left for both sides to feed…then eventually the possibility would renew for a conflict in the future, but German technology would have compensated better if that conflict played out in say 1944 or latter.

Whole battle groups of ‘Landkreuzers’ FTW! :lol:

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

@timerover51:

I cannot vote, but I suspect that following the failure of Sea Lion, sometime in October or November of 1940, Hitler is shot, and the Germans start frantically negotiating with the British to clear their backs before the Russians attack.

Yeah that would have been nice if he were shot but Goerring was next in command. Uh. That fat a** was SO lazy. Now if Rommel took full power, the whole Riech would have been a different place to live that didn’t persecute anyone. One of the main problems the Nazis always had was no central leadership militarily speaking. So Hilter (for instace) would settle arguments with Weirmacht and SS High Command by making extremely some poor decision. Then to make matters worse, he would continue to meddle with the battle plans instead of trusting some of the most brilliant strategists in all of Europe.

Hmm, “most brilliant strategists in all of Europe”.  You might try reading the Germans own assessment of their strategy in Germany’s Campaign in Russia, 1940-42, Planning and Operations.  The Germans THOUGHT that they were the most brilliant strategists in Europe.  When it came to logistics, they were rank amateurs.  Amateurs worry about tactics and strategy, professionals worry about logistics. They were a bit better with respects to logistics than the Japanese, but that is not saying much at all.

@timerover51:

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

@timerover51:

I cannot vote, but I suspect that following the failure of Sea Lion, sometime in October or November of 1940, Hitler is shot, and the Germans start frantically negotiating with the British to clear their backs before the Russians attack.

Yeah that would have been nice if he were shot but Goerring was next in command. Uh. That fat a** was SO lazy. Now if Rommel took full power, the whole Riech would have been a different place to live that didn’t persecute anyone. One of the main problems the Nazis always had was no central leadership militarily speaking. So Hilter (for instace) would settle arguments with Weirmacht and SS High Command by making extremely some poor decision. Then to make matters worse, he would continue to meddle with the battle plans instead of trusting some of the most brilliant strategists in all of Europe.

Hmm, “most brilliant strategists in all of Europe”.  You might try reading the Germans own assessment of their strategy in Germany’s Campaign in Russia, 1940-42, Planning and Operations.  The Germans THOUGHT that they were the most brilliant strategists in Europe.  When it came to logistics, they were rank amateurs.  Amateurs worry about tactics and strategy, professionals worry about logistics. They were a bit better with respects to logistics than the Japanese, but that is not saying much at all.

When I said “Brilliant” I meant ALL of Europe including England by the way if that’s what’s gotten up your pants. Rommel was a brilliant strategist. As I had mentioned, there was no real central leadership besides Hitler so officers argued over “who gets what” when it came to the logistics of supplies. I don’t know what your talking about. A god General is completely involved in logistics, just not down to every little detail. They make sure their men fighting have the supplies they need and the lanes of supply convoys do not get closed down

OK Time out guys. I finally got to play last night and I won! It was like the revolutionary war though. My entire German battalions got the bad end of the board with no cover so we were just slaughtered advancing on the Americans. Before finally being killed by a line of artillery, my Brumbar Tank did manage to bombard the entire objective area, clearing it promply of all anti-tank units with special cover rolls.

ANYWAYS. Quesiont about those Barr Gunners. It says if they attack “any soldier” then that unit cant’ fire back. Does that include officers with special abilities?

@timerover51:

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

@timerover51:

I cannot vote, but I suspect that following the failure of Sea Lion, sometime in October or November of 1940, Hitler is shot, and the Germans start frantically negotiating with the British to clear their backs before the Russians attack.

Yeah that would have been nice if he were shot but Goerring was next in command. Uh. That fat a** was SO lazy. Now if Rommel took full power, the whole Riech would have been a different place to live that didn’t persecute anyone. One of the main problems the Nazis always had was no central leadership militarily speaking. So Hilter (for instace) would settle arguments with Weirmacht and SS High Command by making extremely some poor decision. Then to make matters worse, he would continue to meddle with the battle plans instead of trusting some of the most brilliant strategists in all of Europe.

Hmm, “most brilliant strategists in all of Europe”.  You might try reading the Germans own assessment of their strategy in Germany’s Campaign in Russia, 1940-42, Planning and Operations.  The Germans THOUGHT that they were the most brilliant strategists in Europe.  When it came to logistics, they were rank amateurs.  Amateurs worry about tactics and strategy, professionals worry about logistics. They were a bit better with respects to logistics than the Japanese, but that is not saying much at all.

“When it came to logistics, they were rank amateurs.  Amateurs worry about tactics and strategy, professionals worry about logistics”

I’m sorry but I really can’t see where this guy is coming from with this argument. General Patton was a MASTER of logistics. In fact, he planned many of his attacks and key positions around the resupply and mechanized brilliance of his army. He was involved in logistics in EVERY aspect. That’s why his advancement through the Rhine was so brilliant. All logistics. It’s brilliant leaders that are able to delegate only jobs that don’t effect their strategic initiative. Patton was one of those men. I don’t know how he was able to multi-task so many different thing.

My theory is this: The most brilliant Generals in History have been involved in the highest, most meticulous degree in every aspect of their soldiers well being and strategies. Logistics wins wars. Look up what “logistics” means in the dictionary.

As I’ve said and will say it again, the Weirmacht and SS’s lack of having one head general on each front caused their problems with disorganization.

To go even further, Rommel was involved right down to the “logistics” of rations getting to his men and in what amounts. He even designed all the metal obstacles on the beaches of Normandy, and was involved with having them made and placed. This is what caused such high casualties as the American soldiers were forced to land first to clear these obstacles so our armor could land. Hitler denied him tank reinforcemnts from Germany that would have cost us on an even more catastrophic level.

When in the dessert with thousands of British POW’s. He cut his own soldiers rations in half so the POW’s could live comfortably. He even tore up Hitlers orders to execute any Jew taken as a POW. That’s a little off the topic but I love that man.

In closing: I really have no idea where "Timeover51’s argument has any ground whatsoever.

Germany had the worlds second best logistics after United States.

Of course during the winter of 41 and 42 they had some room for improvement, but learned quickly

The Soviets had one of the worst. Most of their offensives lost steam in short order even in clear weather.

So true. Montgummery and Eisenhower were better strategists than Rommel, simply because they didn’t have an arrogance that many generals on the German High Command would have had. The Germans had very easy victories over Poland, the Low Countries, France and Norway. They felt like they could do anything and they would destroy everyone. Hitler was willing to devote all to the Eastern Front, but Italy’s desire to get an African Empire distracted him from the real task at hand. What do you think