AARHE: Naval Retreat & Friendly Sea Zones



  • Question concerning Naval Combat and Naval Retreat.

    Can 2 German SS’s and a DD retreat at the end of a round of Naval Combat to a sz containing only allied transports.

    We’re confused as to what constititues a friendly sea zone since it states that Naval units can move through szs containing only SS and transports.

    Can those ally APs then leave on the Non-Combat move?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Can 2 German SS’s and a DD retreat at the end of a round of Naval Combat to a sz containing only allied transports.

    We’re confused as to what constititues a friendly sea zone since it states that Naval units can move through szs containing only SS and transports.

    Can those ally APs then leave on the Non-Combat move?

    Question one: yes. Transports or subs cannot control sea zones so Germans can retreat into them

    Q Two: Yes,  They can avoid combat and retire on their own turn



  • AARHE didn’t make additional definition of what is a “friendly sea zone”.
    So on paper OOB rules apply which means a hostile transport in a SZ stops you from retreating to that SZ.

    Yeah I am happy to see how you guys like to tune this.

    We let naval units move thru enemy submarines (provided submarines fail to intercept), not sure about retreating to a SZ with enemy submarines.
    I can thinking of using units to block retreat.

    Also, a few months ago we made it so defender declare retreat decisions before attacker (for both land and naval combat). Now in naval combat this may or may not be weird for defender gets to choose where to run to.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Transports cannot block enemy naval units… they should be able to pass thru…control of a sea zone is by a surface warship with guns.

    A sub should be able however, to take a shot at your passing fleet for this benefit of giving up control, perhaps w/o return fire…or if the sub decides to defend, it can soak up one movement point of the fleets movement in that one combat round, allowing the active player to pass thru with remaining units with remaining movement.



  • Naval control really needs to be revamped somehow.

    I ended up chasing two German transports all over the Atlantic for 9 turns.  It was like chewing on tinfoil.

    Every time I got a crappy roll they got to retreat.  Then they’d pick up another troop and harass the rear (e.g., Brazil, Africa, the Eastern Seaboard, or Norway).  It was a nightmare.

    There doesn’t seem to be anyway to hem them in or slow them down.

    We allow retreats into SZ’s with subs because it states that Subs & Transports don’t control SZ’s.

    With Wolfpacks you don’t dare split up your fleets and Germany gets to squirt out around the edges.

    Maybe something like Battle of Bulge where certain units (e.g., DD/CV/BB) exhibit a zone of control that forces you to stop unless you are escorted by a capital ship.

    Or some kind of sea interceptor capability for unescorted transports.

    I just don’t think transports should be able to harass you so easily.

    Frustrated in SZ 11, 12, & 13…

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I ended up chasing two German transports all over the Atlantic for 9 turns.  It was like chewing on tinfoil.

    Every time I got a crappy roll they got to retreat.  Then they’d pick up another troop and harass the rear (e.g., Brazil, Africa, the Eastern Seaboard, or Norway).  It was a nightmare.

    What kind of peashooters you sent to destroy them? Thats why you need a British naval squadron to contain this situation and block them. The game was made to deny the act of huge stacks and one big battle, but have ongoing battles of smaller units and no situation of blowing some guys navy out of the water in a single turn.

    I guess you will have to built a carrier for mid atlantic to fight pesky transports…AKA “commerce raider”

    There doesn’t seem to be anyway to hem them in or slow them down.

    We allow retreats into SZ’s with subs because it states that Subs & Transports don’t control SZ’s.

    Yes but the sub can attack it when its his turn to move away from the zone. The subs would have first strike capability as well.  You should be able to kill them.

    With Wolfpacks you don’t dare split up your fleets and Germany gets to squirt out around the edges.

    Yes during the ‘happy time’ thats what happened, but technology eventually was the remedy to this.

    Maybe something like Battle of Bulge where certain units (e.g., DD/CV/BB) exhibit a zone of control that forces you to stop unless you are escorted by a capital ship.

    Or some kind of sea interceptor capability for unescorted transports.

    I just don’t think transports should be able to harass you so easily.

    Frustrated in SZ 11, 12, & 13…

    Ok lets here what you propose on this:

    Your saying a surface warship exerts control over its sea zone, which is what we have, enemy transports do not…

    OK the defender can only retreat naval units by:

    1. having at least one warship ( not transport)
    2. rolling a dice adding his total number of warships to a die and the other player doing the same… highest player can decide if combat continues or is broken off.

    That would fix it perfectly… you like?



  • don’t agree wth retreating into hostile submarines
    a bit complex to add a rule to let those submarines roll against them, it’ll be like combat after combat done already

    happy to allow retreating into hostile transports
    but I though of other aspects related to transport should be discussed before changing to maintain consistency

    current: combat move, move through hostile transports is allowed
    proposed: conduct combat, retreating into hostile transport is to be allowed

    other aspects related to transport:

    current: non-combat move, move into or through hostile transport not allowed

    A, current: conduct combat, attacker cannot perform land portion of amphibous assault after attack declares break-off (p.12 Naval Combat: Amphibious Assault)
    B, current: conduct combat, when both sides only have transports they both must retreat or break-off (p.11 Naval Combat: Retreat Decision)

    A+B = one friendly transport can’t move into one enemy transport to offload for ampbious assault


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    don’t agree with retreating into hostile submarines
    a bit complex to add a rule to let those submarines roll against them, it’ll be like combat after combat done already

    Ok then here is the fix: they can retreat into SZ with hostile sub. No combat occurs. ON the subs turn they may elect to attack or move away.

    happy to allow retreating into hostile transports
    but I though of other aspects related to transport should be discussed before changing to maintain consistency

    In this case i think its an exploit of sorts, usually the transport is closer to your home nation , so your actually retreating “forward”. I think if you elect to do this the transport gets a free “dislodgement” move to any other SZ. Otherwise if they share SZ the transport should be destroyed would be the second course.

    current: combat move, move through hostile transports is allowed
    proposed: conduct combat, retreating into hostile transport is to be allowed

    I would decline that idea. a sub is one thing… its undersea it can hide. A lone transport is a weaponless target. I like the dislodgement rule.

    other aspects related to transport:

    current: non-combat move, move into or through hostile transport not allowed

    A, current: conduct combat, attacker cannot perform land portion of amphibious assault after attack declares break-off (p.12 Naval Combat: Amphibious Assault)
    B, current: conduct combat, when both sides only have transports they both must retreat or break-off (p.11 Naval Combat: Retreat Decision)

    A+B = one friendly transport can’t move into one enemy transport to offload for amphibious assault



  • retreating into hostile submarines
    so do we allow 1 transport + 1 destroyer to retreat from combat, into a SZ with 5 enemy submarines?
    is that more or less realistic then retreating into a SZ with 1 destroyer?

    retreating into hostile transports
    actually you misunderstood
    I am not saying the transport is retreating
    the hostile transport is idle
    the friendly fleet is retreating



  • lets resume the discussion
    note none of the proposed changes in this thread has been implemented yet
    we’ll try to be less ambiguous as we obviously misunderstood each other in the last posts

    the 3 situations are related
    *which SZ you can move thru in combat move
    *which SZ you can retreat to
    *which SZ you can move thru in non-combat move

    so when we sugguest how to handle submarine or transport as an active (moving unit) or passive (stationary occupying unit) in one particular situation, consider to reflect, realistically, to other 2 situation


    first up

    currently
    *friendly naval units may move through SZ occupied by hostile transports only, during combat move
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Submarines and/or Transports. from “Naval Movement” in “Phase 3: Combat Move”

    so shall we add these?
    *friendly naval units may move through SZ occupied by hostile transport only, during non-combat move
    *friendly naval units may retreat to SZ occupied by hostile transport only, during conduct combat


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    the 3 situations are related
    *which SZ you can move thru in combat move
    *which SZ you can retreat to
    *which SZ you can move thru in non-combat move

    so when we suggest how to handle submarine or transport as an active (moving unit) or passive (stationary occupying unit) in one particular situation, consider to reflect, realistically, to other 2 situation


    first up

    currently
    *friendly naval units may move through SZ occupied by hostile transports only, during combat move
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Submarines and/or Transports. from “Naval Movement” in “Phase 3: Combat Move”

    so shall we add these?
    *friendly naval units may move through SZ occupied by hostile transport only, during non-combat move
    *friendly naval units may retreat to SZ occupied by hostile transport only, during conduct combat

    well not really. Its too ambiguous sounding.

    it should read:

    1. Enemy transports cannot stop your naval movement during either movement phase or as a result of a retreat to the zone when your under attack.

    2. Enemy submarines must also allow your naval units to pass thru without delay but may attempt to engage in a one round naval combat action. Lastly, your unescorted transports can never move past enemy subs unless the subs elect to decline combat action. In any other case multiple combat rounds occur.



  • well not really. Its too ambiguous sounding.

    yeah they are points not text, I try to use italics when I reference actual text

    anyway first up is transport as a passive occupying unit
    (we’ll do submarine as a passive occupying unit later)

    point: *friendly naval units may move through SZ occupied by hostile transport only, during non-combat move

    currently, under Phase 3: Combat Move, Naval Movement
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Submarines and/or Transports.

    propose, under Phase 5: Non-Combat Move, I’ll add
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Transports.

    point: *friendly naval units may retreat to SZ occupied by hostile transport only, during conduct combat

    currently, under Phase 4: Conduct Combat, Naval Combat: Retreat Decision, Defender Retreat, I’ll add
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones.

    propose, change it to
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones, or adjacent hostile sea zones occupied by submarines only.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    propose, under Phase 5: Non-Combat Move, I’ll add
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Transports.

    1. Enemy transports cannot stop your naval movement during either movement phase or as a result of a retreat to the zone when your under attack.

    Both statements don’t convey the same meaning. Adding the word “hostile” Transports makes people wonder if the variant implies a special condition for transports. Its more clear to say enemy.

    propose, change it to
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones, or adjacent hostile sea zones occupied by submarines only.

    1. Enemy submarines must also allow your naval units to pass thru without delay but may attempt to engage in a one round naval combat action. Lastly, your unescorted transports can never move past enemy subs unless the subs elect to decline combat action. In any other case multiple combat rounds occur.

    This is not the same meaning at all. It does not make note of the option of the owner of the sub to enforce one combat round at his discretion. Nor does it elude to the fact that YOUR transports cant pass over enemy subs ( not hostile subs).



  • Its more clear to say enemy.

    ok

    so
    Phase 5: Non-Combat Move
    proposal
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Transports.
    becomes
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only emey Transports.

    This is not the same meaning at all. It does not make note of the option of the owner of the sub to enforce one combat round at his discretion.

    sorry, typo
    this is about transports, not subs yet

    so
    Phase 4: Conduct Combat
    proposal
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones, or adjacent hostile sea zones occupied by submarines only.
    becomes
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones, or adjacent hostile sea zones occupied by transports only.

    all good?
    if so we look at submarines next


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    so
    Phase 5: Non-Combat Move
    proposal
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only hostile Transports.
    becomes
    Naval units may go through sea zones consisting of only emey Transports.

    except its ‘enemy’ 😄

    Quote
    This is not the same meaning at all. It does not make note of the option of the owner of the sub to enforce one combat round at his discretion.
    sorry, typo
    this is about transports, not subs yet

    yes then add that point as well. saying Hostile does not help the meaning any better. Just add a second sentence regarding the option. Leave out words like hostile and use enemy because its more exact. Hostile makes people think why does he not just say enemy. So you add the sentence about the other option and its cleared up.

    so
    Phase 4: Conduct Combat
    proposal
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones, or adjacent hostile sea zones occupied by submarines only.
    becomes
    Retreating naval units may retreat to any adjacent friendly sea zones, or adjacent hostile sea zones occupied by transports only.

    yes thats better.

    all good?
    if so we look at submarines next



  • ok now we deal with submarines
    (enemy submarines as passive stationary units)

    if you want to be able to move through enemy submarines in non-combat move, I am ok with it

    if you want to be able to retreat into a sea zone occupied by enemy submarines, I am not sure about that (as mentioned)
    if so I rather we let defender retreat into ANY adjacent sea zone


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    if you want to be able to move through enemy submarines in non-combat move, I am ok with it

    yes they can pass thru. no special dispensations.

    if you want to be able to retreat into a sea zone occupied by enemy submarines, I am not sure about that (as mentioned)
    if so I rather we let defender retreat into ANY adjacent sea zone

    They can retreat to ANY sea zone not occupied by enemy surface warships ( so they can enter SZ with subs or transports)

    From now on subs and transports don’t do anything unless its their active turn.

    Of course you can send ASW units and try and kill them by hunting them down.

    also,have some new ideas for subs which are extremely simple, listed under AA50 house rules.

    I want to make a new AARHE version for AA50 once we fix these semantic issues and clarifications.

    I have a map that’s the best map you have seen. Id say its at least as good as the new map and done in the same style. Its 98% done. adding artistic items. I will release this and alot of files in a few weeks time.


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