Diplomacy



  • Does Gibralter count as a country in the Diplomacy rolls?

    Question:  Can Germany take over Gibralter and use it to influence Spain?  Or do the influence bonuses only come from countries that have income value?

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Question:  Can Germany take over Gibraltar and use it to influence Spain?  Or do the influence bonuses only come from countries that have income value?

    Gibraltar is British. It can never be influenced…consider it part of england like Malta



  • Can Germany and US choose two different neutrals to influence per turn – or do they have to roll both dice against the same neutral?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Can Germany and US choose two different neutrals to influence per turn – or do they have to roll both dice against the same neutral?

    They can do whatever they want. Usually however, if one player makes a breakthru, the other will allocate diplomacy to that same neutral to try to stem the tide of anti-German or anti-American sentiment. Its up to you, but the allies have the narrow advantage because they respond after the axis, so they have more information to go on.



  • @Imperious:

    Can Germany and US choose two different neutrals to influence per turn – or do they have to roll both dice against the same neutral?

    They can do whatever they want. Usually however, if one player makes a breakthru, the other will allocate diplomacy to that same neutral to try to stem the tide of anti-German or anti-American sentiment. Its up to you, but the allies have the narrow advantage because they respond after the axis, so they have more information to go on.

    Actually, what I was trying to ask is if they can split thier dice.  Germany gets 2 influence dice.  Can they roll one against Turkey and one against Spain – or do they have to roll both dice aginst the same neutral?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Actually, what I was trying to ask is if they can split their dice.  Germany gets 2 influence dice.  Can they roll one against Turkey and one against Spain – or do they have to roll both dice against the same neutral?

    They are free to double up on one neutral or spread it around… its entirely your choice!



  • Um, actually someone (maybe Bierwagen) has previously displayed a worrisome  thought that neutrals can get to +3/-3 too quickly before the other team can react…and hence [IL] you have changed it so a player can target a neutral only once per turn. This is currently in the yet-to-be-uploaded massively-delayed new version on my computer.

    Of course, this still allows 3 Allies dice to target the same neutral per turn.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    well the last sentence kinda solves it. right?

    Allowing say 6 rolls on one neutral is akin to the old problem under tech of watching your enemy get heavy bombers, and you throw everything at tech or lose the game.

    If both you and him can only roll out one die per nation it limits this and cuts it out. In order to fight back you have to spend a series of turns trying to turn the neutral back… it wont be one turn.



  • @Bierwagen:

    Question:  Can Germany take over Gibraltar and use it to influence Spain? 
    Or do the influence bonuses only come from countries that have income value?

    @Imperious:

    Gibraltar is British. It can never be influenced…consider it part of england like Malta

    Reading over AARHE 4.0 I noticed Terrain.

    @AARHE:

    … Small territories such as Gibraltar cannot be occupied by more than 2 units and cannot be attacked by more than 2 land units.

    So, Gibraltar is a separate country that can be attacked – and this brings me back to the question I was trying to ask:

    If Gibraltar is attacked and conquered by Germany on G1, do the Axis get a +1 die roll modifier when trying to influence Spain during Phase 8: Diplomacy ?

    @AARHE:

    Phase 8: Diplomacy
    … Team control of each territory adjacent to neutral not controlled originally by your team increases hit value by 1.

    I’m unclear because Gibraltar is an odd country with no IPC value or initial setup forces.

    It makes it a very strategic target in order to capture the guns there as well.

    It would be fairly easy for Germany to concentrate on SZ13 to take Gibraltar on G1.  Then Japan & Germany get 3 dice @ 2 to convert Spain on the first turn of the game.  Even if they didn’t get it on the first turn they’ll get another +1 roll the second turn before the Allies can do anything about it. (e.g., no way to reinforce Gibraltar on US/UK1).

    Like Tekkyy was stating, it is possible that Spain is taken off the playing field by the Axis before the Allies have a turn 1.

    Was this the intent?  It has is pretty scary consequences and would always be my opening move during G1 in order to eventually get Spain’s 49 IPC army.

    G1: BB SZ14 -> SZ 13
          SS SZ 8 -> SZ 13
          FTR Western Europe -> SZ 13
          FTR Germany -> SZ 13
          AP SZ 14 -> SZ 13
            - ARM, INF Western Europe -> Gibraltar

    Overkill for sure… but, it would be very hard for Allies to take it back.

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Quote from: Bierwagen

    Question:  Can Germany take over Gibraltar and use it to influence Spain?

    Or do the influence bonuses only come from countries that have income value?

    Answer: Yes, and no… Germany tan use it to influence Spain and influence modifiers apply to any adjacent territory even if it has no IPC value.

    Quote from: Imperious Leader on June 23, 2008, 07:26:14 pm

    Gibraltar is British. It can never be influenced…consider it part of england like Malta

    Gibraltar or Malta ITSELF cannot be influenced, because they are part of British assets. But as i said before if you occupy Gibraltar, you can use its modifier to help sway Spain, because your politically isolating it and that pressurizes neutrals to get in line behind your regime.

    Reading over AARHE 4.0 I noticed Terrain.

    Quote from: AARHE 4.0 Page 8

    … Small territories such as Gibraltar cannot be occupied by more than 2 units and cannot be attacked by more than 2 land units.

    So, Gibraltar is a separate country that can be attacked – and this brings me back to the question I was trying to ask:

    If Gibraltar is attacked and conquered by Germany on G1, do the Axis get a +1 die roll modifier when trying to influence Spain during Phase 8: Diplomacy ?

    Yes, remember only two units can land, which means no more than 2 air units, (additional attack at 1)

    Quote from: AARHE 4.0 Page 17
    Phase 8: Diplomacy
    … Team control of each territory adjacent to neutral not controlled originally by your team increases hit value by 1.

    I’m unclear because Gibraltar is an odd country with no IPC value or initial setup forces.

    It applies to any territory that you have conquered and is adjacent to another territory you wish to influence diplomatically. Again it does not need a IPC value.

    It makes it a very strategic target in order to capture the guns there as well.

    It would be fairly easy for Germany to concentrate on SZ13 to take Gibraltar on G1.  Then Japan & Germany get 3 dice @ 2 to convert Spain on the first turn of the game.  Even if they didn’t get it on the first turn they’ll get another +1 roll the second turn before the Allies can do anything about it. (e.g., no way to reinforce Gibraltar on US/UK1).

    Gibraltar gets interdiction shots, plus they are mountain defense, plus only two units can attack it. Japan cannot influence neutrals that it does not have a presence… It may not be clarified before on this point… but i think we need to place some limitations on piling all the diplomacy rolls for all three axis or allies on one neutral…like a diplomatic blitzkrieg.

    Like Tekkyy was stating, it is possible that Spain is taken off the playing field by the Axis before the Allies have a turn 1.

    Was this the intent?  It has is pretty scary consequences and would always be my opening move during G1 in order to eventually get Spain’s 49 IPC army.

    G1: BB SZ14 -> SZ 13
          SS SZ 8 -> SZ 13
          FTR Western Europe -> SZ 13
          FTR Germany -> SZ 13
          AP SZ 14 -> SZ 13
            - ARM, INF Western Europe -> Gibraltar

    I know your missing something on the defense, ill write it all down and get back in a few.

    Overkill for sure… but, it would be very hard for Allies to take it back.



  • @Imperious:

    Gibraltar gets interdiction shots, plus they are mountain defense, plus only two units can attack it.

    Gibraltar only gets Interdiction shots at hostile non-Submarine naval units moving between SZ12 -> SZ13.

    It wouldn’t get to shoot at Germany’s (G1) naval units coming from SZ14 -> SZ13 because they aren’t moving through the Straits of Gibraltar.

    So, for clarity – later on in the game you could attack Gibraltar with 2 ground units and 2 air units.  The point being that you can only move 2 ground units in.

    @Imperious:

    Japan cannot influence neutrals that it does not have a presence… It may not be clarified before on this point… but i think we need to place some limitations on piling all the diplomacy rolls for all three axis or allies on one neutral…like a diplomatic blitzkrieg.

    Oh, this is new.  We’ve been allowing all three Allies to get +1 on Spain whenever they invade Western Europe.

    The same for Axis whenever Japan or Germany takes Trans-Jordan or Persia we let both Axis get +1 for each.

    So, for clarity would just the person who claimed the territory get the +1 or anyone that had troops in the territory (e.g., usually co-occupied by US/UK).

    This changes things quite drastically on the Diplomatic front.

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes OMG your applying the +1 modifier for each of the three allied players and piling even japans rolls in?

    You cant do this. Each nation has its sphere of influence.

    Germany/Italy can influence neutrals in Europe and Africa

    Japan can only influence Asian nations

    USSR can only influence nations adjacent to her territories

    UK can influence any neutral adjacent to her colonies

    USA can influence N and S America.

    Exceptions: If you have what they call a “dog in the fight”  say Americans somehow invaded and control Saudi Arabia… they can begin to influence adjacent neutrals.

    So you cant have situations where Peru turns into a Japanese ally unless they landed and took Mexico and have a foothold in South America

    I will add and have tekkyy add this:

    You must allocate your free diplomatic rolls to no more than one nation per turn… ( no piling up)

    If you buy diplomatic rolls then you can allocate more than one “purchased” roll on the same neutral

    Also, no more total rolls overall on a neutral than its IPC value… If neutral has no IPC value then only one roll per neutral.

    thoughts?



  • I agree IL, as it evens out the playing field and makes the game as realistic as playable.  Our group dicided early on that each individual Axis or Allied nation whould only benefit from their own diplomatic rolls.

    Each nation has its sphere of influence.  Germany/Italy can influence neutrals in Europe and Africa.  Japan can only influence Asian nations.  USSR can only influence nations adjacent to her territories UK can influence any neutral adjacent to her colonies.  USA can influence N and S America.  Exceptions: If you have what they call a “dog in the fight”  say Americans somehow invaded and control Saudi Arabia… they can begin to influence adjacent neutrals.

    To me, this is a new interpretation.  (Correct me if I’m wrong.)  Not a bad one as it serves the historical side but is it also playable?  I think it is and plan on incorperating it into play for our group.

    However, if you are going to limit nations diplomacy to only specific territories, you have got to put that in writing.

    PS  Will someone please tell me have to enter a quote in a box :?



  • @oldsalty:

    PS  Will someone please tell me have to enter a quote in a box :?

    Hit the Quote option in the top right of a thread and you’ll see the format.

    Enjoy!
    -Bierwagen



  • @Imperious:

    Yes OMG your applying the +1 modifier for each of the three allied players and piling even japans rolls in?

    You cant do this. Each nation has its sphere of influence.

    Oh, I like this much better than what is currently written.

    We really need to clarify this from the rules:

    @AARHE:

    Diplomacy Rolls
    … Team control of each territory adjacent to neutral not controlled originally by your team increases hit value by 1.

    Unless this is covered in AARHE 1939, I’ve never seen anything else.  Nor have I seen anything about buying additional dice.  There are apparently many assumptions that I’m not familiar with.

    Lost in the land of Diplomatic maneuvering…

    help

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Quote

    Each nation has its sphere of influence.  Germany/Italy can influence neutrals in Europe and Africa.  Japan can only influence Asian nations.  USSR can only influence nations adjacent to her territories UK can influence any neutral adjacent to her colonies.  USA can influence N and S America.  Exceptions: If you have what they call a “dog in the fight”  say Americans somehow invaded and control Saudi Arabia… they can begin to influence adjacent neutrals.

    To me, this is a new interpretation.  (Correct me if I’m wrong.)  Not a bad one as it serves the historical side but is it also playable?  I think it is and plan on incorporating it into play for our group.

    Japan had no influence on say Sweden or Turkey… Influence is basically having and financing a 5th column in a neutral and trying to turn them to establish a Anti- (insert enemy nation here) government.

    from page 17 of the Rulesbook:

    Level of cooperation

    Level of cooperation Benefits from neutral
    +5 Fully committed to Allies
    +4 Pro-Allies, Allies units can enter
    +3 Pro-Allies, income goes to allies
    +2 Neutral, Allies air units can fly over
    +1 Neutral, Allies naval units can dock
    0 Neutral
    -1 Neutral, Axis naval units can dock
    -2 Neutral, Axis air units can fly over
    -3 Pro-Axis, income goes to axis
    -4 Pro-Axis, Axis units can enter
    -5 Fully committed to Axis

    An attack on a neutral by team A causes it to join team B, taking it to +5/-5 accordingly and its units enter
    the game immediately. Naval units are placed in any adjacent sea zone. Territory, income, and units go to
    the player (on team B) with the closest original capital VC and still holding the capital. If team B lost all
    their original capitals then they go to the player with the closest occupied capital VC.
    Naval units may “dock” at neutrals with at least 1 level of co-operation towards your team. An attack on
    a docked naval unit is an attack on the neutral. Naval units may not “dock” at the same neutral for two
    consecutive game rounds.

    Diplomacy Rolls
    Select a neutral at or above -2 if Allies, at or below +2 if Axis, before each roll. Each player may only target
    a neutral once per turn.
    Hitting on a 1 the neutral moves one position towards your team. Team control of
    each territory adjacent to neutral not controlled originally by your team increases hit value by 1. Income
    goes to the player that moved the neutral to +3 or -3. Territory and units goes to that player when the neutral
    moves to +5/-5 position by diplomacy rolls.

    Nation Diplomacy Rolls

    Germany 2
    Italy 0
    Japan 1
    Soviet Union 1
    UK 1
    US 2

    The rules say each nation can target one neutral per turn…what it should say to clarify is:

    First part:Each player cannot perform more than one free diplomacy roll for each neutral, while additional purchased rolls can be targeted against the same neutral in a given turn. Additionally, a neutral cannot be targeted for diplomacy by each side more than once per turn.

    Second part: Any purchased dice for diplomatic rolls must be paid for before rolling so you cant buy two rolls fail and then buy two more… you have only one purchase opportunity and if you succeed on the first roll, the others are wasted because they were allocated only for that designated neutral.

    This fixes it. If Spain is rolled by axis only one axis player can try it ( only either Germany or Italy) and only one roll, unless you buy more rolls then that same nation can pile up a few more rolls on the same neutral.

    You cant have Italy try spain, then fail, Then have Germany try spain, then fail, then lastly, have Japan have a go at it.



  • This is the first I’ve heard that you can purchase more rolls for diplomacy.

    How much do they cost?

    The only place I’ve seen something similar is in “The War Game”.  You can spend money to influence neutrals, but I have yet to play it.

    • Bierwagen


  • I think IL was thinking about purchasing Development rolls.  There is nothing in the 1939 rules regarding any diplomacy varience.  I also checked the 02-09-08 release date of version 4.0 (long version) and nothing was there.  Unless this was discussed and decided in another topic string.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Ok sorry i was looking at an old draft… you cannot purchase additional rolls… my bad.

    so i modify as follows:

    Each player cannot perform more than one free diplomacy roll for each neutral. Additionally, a neutral cannot be targeted for diplomacy by each side more than once per turn.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Unless this was discussed and decided in another topic string.

    yes right this was a big discussion a while back. again sorry to confuse you guys.



  • @Imperious:

    Ok sorry i was looking at an old draft… you cannot purchase additional rolls… my bad.

    so i modify as follows:

    Each player cannot perform more than one free diplomacy roll for each neutral. Additionally, a neutral cannot be targeted for diplomacy by each side more than once per turn.

    From some past discussions we were allowing someone like Germany, with 2 dice, to throw both against the same country.  However, they could only move it one block even if both dice scored hits…

    Even with all these rolls we’ve been abusing (e.g., allowing Japan to help Germany influence Spain or Turkey) – we have only once turn a county, and it was very late in the game.  I think Germany got Turkey once.  ONLY after they had Trans-Jordan & Persia for a +2 modifier.

    So, I haven’t found Diplomacy to be that much of a player really.  Though it does add some excitement.

    I’m a little nervous about this Gibraltar issue though.  We hadn’t been playing with that one.

    I do like the fact that certain countries only influence certain regions.  That one needs to be spelled out.  Something akin to the Convey Raid Chart by country and what territories they influence.

    I also think that if the US invades Western Europe that they should be allowed to roll on Spain.  And likewise if Japan makes it to Persia (which in our games they usually do) they should be allowed to roll on Turkey.

    Thanks for the great discussions.  The more we play this here in San Antonio – the more we keep uncovering.

    So, the game stays very dynamic.

    Enjoy the day!

    • Bierwagen


  • @Imperious:

    This fixes it. If Spain is rolled by axis only one axis player can try it ( only either Germany or Italy) and only one roll, unless you buy more rolls then that same nation can pile up a few more rolls on the same neutral.

    It’s always an interesting exercise talking to you IL… you have so many games in your head that I never know if I’m talking the right rule set.

    So, you always bring up a lot of good ideas and options that keep me on my toes.

    Italy has no Diplomacy Rolls in AARHE 4.0 Draft (24 Jul 08) 😉

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    It’s always an interesting exercise talking to you IL… you have so many games in your head that I never know if I’m talking the right rule set.

    yes i hear that quite often it seems… 50 different games using similar systems, plus millions of drafts with ideas that no longer apply half the time…

    yes italy has no rolls…just 3 axis and 4 allies total



  • If you invade a Neutral and defeat whatever converted forces are there do you then begin to control the income?

    Or is the income solely dependent on the “Level of Cooperation” chart.

    Say Germany converts Spain to -5 or even -3.  Can UK/US invade and control the income?  Or does the income still go to Germany?

    All of sudden I’m filled with dialect tension… I hate this feeling of uncertainty.

    The question:
    What happens to the income value of a neutral country that is invaded?

    • Bierwagen

  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If you invade a Neutral and defeat whatever converted forces are there do you then begin to control the income?

    yes

    Say Germany converts Spain to -5 or even -3.  Can UK/US invade and control the income?  Or does the income still go to Germany?

    The income goes to Germany until Spain is controlled by enemies of Germany. If UK invaded Spain its immediately a -5 ally to Germany and Germany gets the money.

    The question:

    What happens to the income value of a neutral country that is invaded?

    If you invade a neutral its immediately turned into a +5 or -5 full ally of the opposing player, the neutral now gives you the income and they control its forces as its new ally.


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