Shuffling figs on friendly CVs in same sz?



  • Quick rules question that I can’t find an answer to  (LHTR 2.0 if it matters)

    If Nation A’s figs are on a friendly nation B’s CV, and that nations figs are on nation A’s CV in the same Sz, can they shuffle to the other carrier, or does one CV have to be cleared out first, then the planes move to it, then the second carrier can be filled the next turn?

    I would think they could shuffle, especially if there was an intervening turn by the opponent, because planes are assumed to be up in the air to defend each turn so they could easily land on another CV in the same Sz without waiting for a full “movement” on their turn,  but I could be wrong.

    For example: 2 Japan figs land on an German carrier.  Then on Germany’s turn it moves the carrier (with J figs as cargo) to a Sz with a Japanese CV and also sends 2 German figs to the same zone.  When Japan moves next, must the German planes reside on the Japanese CV since it was the only one open when they landed?  Or could they have  “shuffled” back to their own CV, say, during Britain’s turn.



  • Units can only move in their own turn.

    So one nation would have to move their FIGs out of the way in THEIR turn, and then the other nation could move their units in their turn.

    No matter how you slice it, if you have two loaded AC’s, with allied nations having their FIGs on the the other allies AC, there will be a 1 turn gap where only 2 FIGs are in the fleet if you want to get the FIGs on their own AC.  Or you can be 1 FIG short and do the shuffle over 2 turns…



  • But according to the rules, if attacked those figs are already in the air within that sea zone.  if the cv is sunk they could even fly to an adjacent territory (Oh look! Units moving when it’s not their turn!  Things that make you go “Hmmm…”  :|)

    The rules state they’re already flying while the opponent takes they’re turn.  Why couldn’t they fly around their sea zone to the accompanying carrier during this intervening turn by the enemy?



  • For the same reason that you cannot “defender retreat” is the reason that you cannot re-arrange your FIGs.

    That is the ATTACKER’s move, not the defender’s.  So the defender units can DEFEND, but they cannot MOVE, and that would include moving from 1 AC to another.



  • @ncscswitch:

    For the same reason that you cannot “defender retreat” is the reason that you cannot re-arrange your FIGs.

    That is the ATTACKER’s move, not the defender’s.  So the defender units can DEFEND, but they cannot MOVE, and that would include moving from 1 AC to another.

    I can understand that sentiment, but nothing in the rules seems to state this definitively.  In fact, all the discussion of Combat Moves and Non-Combat Moves has to do with traveling from one territory or zone to another. (For example, when discussing ships that start in a hostile territory the rules use the phrase “Once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat…” [emphasis added] which implies that the units staying in the sea zone did not move per se, or the “OR” would not be necessary).  However, the rules do clearly state that the planes can go in the air when it is not their turn.  And last time I checked, WW2 figs could not hover, so I think by rule they must be “moving”, albeit within the sea zone so it shouldn’t be considered a “Move” in game terminology.

    Can anyone find actual statements in the rules document to support the intuitive sentiment switch is purporting?



  • Wait, I think I found it. In the section Phase III: Combat Move, under Special Combat Moves and the subheading Aircraft Carriers (LHTR 2.0, page 10)

    “Whether it moves during the combat move or noncombat move phase, an aircraft carrier allows
    friendly fighters to land on it in the sea zone where it finishes its move.” [emphasis added]

    This statement makes no sense unless it’s referring to friendly fighters landing on the the carrier, during the turn in which the carrier moved. If it’s referring only to figs of the same power, I’d think it would say so, but it says friendly.  If it’s referring to the turn of the friendly power with the figs, it wouldn’t matter whether it moved in combat or non-combat and wouldn’t have anything to do with special moves of the Aircraft carrier.  It would just be sitting there.  The statement really only makes sense if it’s referring to friendly figs already in the sea zone on a different carrier.    It seems to me this states that the planes can shuffle.



  • What you quote states that the FIG is MOVING.

    If the sea zone is attacked, the FIGs are NOT moving.  Movement in that case is reserved for the Attacker in either Combat or Non Combat MOVEMENT.

    Since the FIGs cannot, by game mechanics, be MOVING when they are on the defense, they cannot MOVE to another AC.



  • @ncscswitch:

    What you quote states that the FIG is MOVING.

    If the sea zone is attacked, the FIGs are NOT moving.  Movement in that case is reserved for the Attacker in either Combat or Non Combat MOVEMENT.

    Since the FIGs cannot, by game mechanics, be MOVING when they are on the defense, they cannot MOVE to another AC.

    This is the section on special movements for the Carrier. Nowhere in that statement does it say the figs are moving.

    It says the CARRIER is moving and the figs are “friendly” (implying they could be from any of the Carrier-owner’s allied nations), and “in the sea zone where it [the CV] finishes its move”  This sure sounds like a shuffle to me.



  • Again, in the case where the SZ is being attacked, NONE of the defending AC’s are MOVING.  Movement is reserved for the ATTACKER under game mechanics.



  • And if you are talking about a move where an ally is moving their AC into a Sea Zone, that does not work either, because any FIGs presently in that SZ belonging to another nation cannot MOVE to the new AC since it is not their turn; and MOVEMENT may only be done during that nation’s move (either combat and/or non-combat).



  • @ncscswitch:

    Again, in the case where the SZ is being attacked, NONE of the defending AC’s are MOVING.  Movement is reserved for the ATTACKER under game mechanics.

    Sorry if I’m not clear.  I’m no longer referring to a case of defense in the sea zone - that was just speculation on my part.  This quote from the rules refers to the movement of the second friendly CV to enter the area.  When it arrives, this rule states it can take on friendly figs already in the sea zone, Seemingly allowing a shuffle to occur.



  • No, it cannot.

    FIGs not of your nation are not MOVING in your turn.  As such they are CARGO on whatever AC they are currently attached to.

    The rules are explicit… MOVEMENT is reserved for the ATTACKER.  And a friendly AC moving into a friendly SZ does not allow for the allied FIGs already in that SZ that belong to another nation to get a movement when it is not their turn.



  • @ncscswitch:

    And if you are talking about a move where an ally is moving their AC into a Sea Zone, that does not work either, because any FIGs presently in that SZ belonging to another nation cannot MOVE to the new AC since it is not their turn; and MOVEMENT may only be done during that nation’s move (either combat and/or non-combat).

    But the rules do not seem to treat units staying in the sea zone as “Movement”.  See my post above where the rules make a distinction between Moving or just staying in a contested sea zone for combat.

    All indications are that a “Move” in game terms refers to traveling from one sea zone or territory to another.



  • In order for you to support your argument, you will need to show me where in the rules it allows for a nation who is not currently moving OR being attacked to be permitted to move their FIGs.

    Otherwise, the new AC entering the SZ is just that… a new AC moving in, and the other allied FIGs ignore it until their turn.



  • Sorry, I am NEVER going to allow a nation that is NOT in its turn and is NOT being attacked to MOVE their FIGs.  The rules do not allow for it.  It ain’t your turn, you CANNOT move.  Those are the rules.

    If you think I am in error, ask Kreig for his advice…



  • @ncscswitch:

    Sorry, I am NEVER going to allow a nation that is NOT in its turn and is NOT being attacked to MOVE their FIGs.  The rules do not allow for it.  It ain’t your turn, you CANNOT move.  Those are the rules.

    If you think I am in error, ask Kreig for his advice…

    I won’t dispute that such units can not MOVE.  The question is how do you define the term MOVE.  I cited an example that seemed to indicate units staying in the same sea zone are not MOVING in game mechanics terminology, even when they are involved in combat.  I haven’t seen you bring up anything from the rules that indicates to the contrary.


  • Official Q&A

    I’m going to have to side with 'Switch on this one.  Tim, I think you’re reading too much into the word “friendly” in the rule you quoted.  When it’s your ally’s turn, your fighters on his/her carrier are cargo - they can’t move.  This means they wouldn’t be in the air, which precludes transferring to another carrier in the same sea zone.

    Movement doesn’t necessarily require a piece to move from one space to another.  For example, transports move within a space when they pick up units from one territory then unload them into another territory bordering the same sea zone.

    The only time your fighters are in the air when it’s not your turn is when they’re under attack.  Even then, they may only move when their carrier is sunk out from under them.  Under that circumstance only may a fighter move, even within the same sea zone, when it’s not the owner’s turn.  In that case, it may land on another friendly carrier.



  • Ok, thanks.  Like I said when I pm’ed you about this, I was pretty sure that was the common interpretation… i just couldn’t find anything in the rules that explicitly spelled it out, and as I was trying to pour over them, I kept finding little bits that seemed to support the contrary.  Oh well.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I think you are in error, Switch.

    For one, it’s MUCH easier to assume that a nation’s fighters are on their own carrier instead of just trying to remember who landed what on what carrier 15 rounds ago.

    Secondly, I think Tim is correct, fighters are assumed to have been launched each turn and land at the end of the turn to refuel.  They cannot move to a new territory, but the same sea zone is not a different territory.

    Third, as mentioned before, Carriers do not count as a territory, otherwise launching from a carrier would be the same as leaving an island chain, it is not.

    Fourth, just from a historical and logical precedent, we know that carrier air groups flew cover air patrol when not actively attacking the enemy, therefore it would be logical sense for them to land on their own carriers to refuel and change crews whenever possible.

    Lastly, when you attack a fleet with more than one carrier, you do not kill the fighters that were originally on that carrier when you sink a carrier, the defending fighters only die at the end of combat if there is no viable landing spot.  Therefore, we do have a game precedent set to support the idea that fighters can be on whatever carrier the owner choses whenever the owner choses them to be there, regardless of whose turn it is, provided there is room for the fighters on carriers present.



  • @Cmdr:

    For one, it’s MUCH easier to assume that a nation’s fighters are on their own carrier instead of just trying to remember who landed what on what carrier 15 rounds ago.

    I’ll not agree or desagree with Jen or Switch. Simply i’ll say about that quote:

    If playing face to face, just put the figs on the carrier they landed (limey figs on green carriers… puagh, but still…). AA battlemap or TripleA can be tricky, but you simply can post what figs are in what ACs.



  • Under Cargo rules:

    • A nation, exemple UK,  CAN load it’s infantry on a USA transport on it’s turn.
    • The USA transport CAN move on USA turn with UK infantry onboard but cannot disembark them
    • UK on its turn CAN disembark the infantry either combat or non-combat wise.

    Now, Allied fighters on a carrier are threated as CARGO.
    This means:

    • A nation, exemple UK,  CAN load it’s fighters on a USA carrier on it’s turn.
    • The USA carrier CAN move on USA turn with UK fighters onboard but cannot disembark them.
    • UK on its turn CAN disembark the fighters either combat or non-combat wise.
    • IMPORTANT note, fighters as cargo CANNOT be use offensively or Defensively. If the USA carrier is part of an attack and sink, they’ll go down with it as any cargo goes down with a transport.

    This is how I and friends interpret it.
    So to answer:

    • Shuffling of UK fighters is not possible on USA turn as per Cargo rules. (you can’t disembark them)
    • It is possible however to extend the range of fighters by 2 zones in this scenario if the carrier moved that distance ( which makes sense, since they are transported )

    Other interpretation is:

    • IF allow other nation fighters to be use defensively, then they are treated as landed and CANNOT move with the carrier. Lost at sea if carrier leaves the zone and there is no nearby friendly zone.

    But really, the tripleA rule is wrong for me, fighters should be treated as cargo and not allowed to even defend.


  • Official Q&A

    @Cmdr:

    For one, it’s MUCH easier to assume that a nation’s fighters are on their own carrier instead of just trying to remember who landed what on what carrier 15 rounds ago.

    Funcioneta has already addressed this, so I won’t.

    @Cmdr:

    Secondly, I think Tim is correct, fighters are assumed to have been launched each turn and land at the end of the turn to refuel.  They cannot move to a new territory, but the same sea zone is not a different territory.

    Your fighters launch and recover on your turn, not on anyone else’s.  From LHTR, page 28:

    Fighters from friendly powers can take off and land from your carriers, but only during that power’s turn.

    and

    Fighters belonging to friendly powers on attacking carriers are always treated as cargo, as it is not their turn.

    The intent here is clearly that fighters may only move on their owner’s turn.  As with any other unit, they may defend when they’re attacked, in which case they may defend along with any other units present (also on page 28).  This is an exception to the above rules only in the sense that the fighters take off from and land on the carrier in order to fight.  Since it’s been established that a unit may only move on its owning player’s turn, it must return to the carrier from which it launched.  If the fighter is on the same carrier at the end of the combat that it was at the beginning, in game terms it has not “moved”.  To do anything else would constitute “movement”, even though it is only within the sea zone.  The only stated exception to this limitation in the rules is when the carrier the fighter was on no longer exists, in which case it may move as proscribed on page 26.

    @Cmdr:

    Third, as mentioned before, Carriers do not count as a territory, otherwise launching from a carrier would be the same as leaving an island chain, it is not.

    Correct, however movement within a space is still movement.  This is amply demonstrated in the transport rules.

    @Cmdr:

    Fourth, just from a historical and logical precedent, we know that carrier air groups flew cover air patrol when not actively attacking the enemy, therefore it would be logical sense for them to land on their own carriers to refuel and change crews whenever possible.

    Sorry, but this argument is simply irrelevant.  The rules of the game are what’s important here.

    @Cmdr:

    Lastly, when you attack a fleet with more than one carrier, you do not kill the fighters that were originally on that carrier when you sink a carrier, the defending fighters only die at the end of combat if there is no viable landing spot.  Therefore, we do have a game precedent set to support the idea that fighters can be on whatever carrier the owner choses whenever the owner choses them to be there, regardless of whose turn it is, provided there is room for the fighters on carriers present.

    Not at all.  Since units may not move other than on their owner’s turn (with the above-noted exception), any fighters defending carriers must return to the same carriers when the attack is over, provided they still exist.  The fact that a defending fighter may move if its carrier is destroyed in no way implies that it may otherwise move whenever the owner wishes it to.  The exception applies only under the stated circumstance.

    @Corbeau:

    Now, Allied fighters on a carrier are threated as CARGO.

    Only during the carrier owner’s turn.  When attacked, they may defend.  (Page 28)

    @Corbeau:

    • IMPORTANT note, fighters as cargo CANNOT be use offensively or Defensively. If the USA carrier is part of an attack and sink, they’ll go down with it as any cargo goes down with a transport.

    They can be used defensively, and they defend normally (page 28).



  • By all of the rules, and by game mechanics, you cannot just start shuffling FIGs around on ACs.

    Jen’s argument of “remembering” what landed on what 15 turns ago only applies to Battlemap, and then only if you are careless about grouping the FIGs next to the AC they are sitting on.  But it is meaningless with the actual game board (on which ALL of the rules are based) since the FIG pieces actually sit ON the AC they belong to.

    The rules are explicit about FIGs being CARGO except during their won move.  And CARGO does not fly around (unless it is in the back of a truck and is not properly secured and that truck makes some sudden movements… but that is not part of the game…)


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    You’re still wrong.

    If England and America have Carriers and Fighters in SZ 45 (Solomon’s Sea Zone) and Japan attacks and sinks all the British Carriers, do the American fighters die just because those were the original carriers they were on?  No.  They can land on the American carriers if there is room (if not, the Allies can chose to kill the British fighters and make room for the American ones after combat is concluded.)

    Therefore, there is precedent that it matters not what ship the fighter was on originally, only that there is a valid landing zone for the fighter.

    Edit:

    Transports are, of course, a different story.  Infantry and Armor and Artillery do not defend on a transport, therefore they are cargo.  Fighters DO defend, therefore, are units, not cargo.  They can be hauled along with the ship in NCM as if they were cargo, but are not, in and of themselves, actual cargo.



  • @ncscswitch:

    …you cannot just start shuffling FIGs around on ACs.

    Indeed.

    Jen’s turning the discussion into a classic Monty Python skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM


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