Essay on a German Strategy



  • Hi, I found myself always seeing West Russia and Ukraine taken out from the start by Russia when playing Axis.

    It really annoyed me so i spent time to think how i could punish my opponents badly enough they would not ever try it again.

    So this is an essay on something probably not so new but that saw my precious Ukraine finally left alone. Please bear with me, i did not mention sea zone by their code but rather adjacent territories. Also, english is not my first language.

    This, i will repeat it, is a strategy that deals with a RUSSIAN TAKING UKRAINE opening. It is somewhat of a one impulse “tank push” strategy, aimed on caucasus instead of moscow, shielded by the UnBaltic Csub strategy.

    Edit: I did a big overhaul based on 7 games i played. This strat is now 5/7 games win.

    It had spectacular results with dices while more modest ones in low luck, 2 wins/2 losses. Not because of combat results but because this strat takes advantage of strategic movement on the main map and forcing ennemy to commit troops in combat or retreat. In low luck, it’s easy to commit the strict minimum whereas with dices you will normally send more troops to mitigate luck.



  • Panzer Stampede
    ( Or how to punish Russian they never ever will try to put their nose in Ukraine.)

    “Whereas Panthers were the more serious threat to Allied tanks, Tigers had a bigger psychological effect on opposing crews, causing a “Tiger phobia”. Allied tankers would sometimes evade rather than confront a Tiger, even a tank that only looked like one, such as the Panzer IV with turret skirts applied. "

    ===========================================

    Round one.
    The buy:  8 armoured Tiger tanks with waxed paint and chrome wheels for 40 IPC.

    The moves:

    • Transport departs for Africa, land 2 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tank in a joint assault of Anglo Egypt. It is your discretion to do this or to simply forget Africa to land those 4 troops in Ukraine. Let’s assume that we want Africa. Use one fighter and 1 bomber, battleship sinking the destroyer.
    • Every other available ground units strike at Ukraine. You have 8 infantry, 4 tanks. You should take 2 losses for 6inf/4tanks remaining.
    • 1 Norway infantry takes Karelia if empty.
    • The German air force should do it’s work against the British battleship and land back at least 3 fighters in Western Europe. The bomber now in Libya will still make it to cover the fleet.
    • Move the Atlantic sub and Baltic fleet, except the transport, on the western Europe coast and fighters back to Western Europe to set up the classic trap and protect western Europe from a first round landing. On Uk rd1, IF and after first casulaties, submerge subs.
    • Move the 2 western Europe tanks to Eastern Europe
      -      Move 2 Norway infantry to Eastern Europe via transport
    • Move 3 German infantry and AA gun in Eastern Europe, moving the Italian AA gun to replace it
    • Place your 8 tanks in Germany

    ==================================================

    Round two.

    Russia have now to face 4 tanks and give or take 6-7 infantry in Ukraine… Eastern Europe forces and Germany tanks are making it a dead zone. They starting to feel a bit less smart by now. It’s too late. Assuming they counter attack from all sides on Ukraine. They have in the best scenario :

    • 5 infantry, 2 artillery in West Russia
    • 8 infantry, 2 artillery in Caucasus
    • 2-4 tanks in Moscow and some jets.The German build should

    This will normally give them a victory but at the price of 6-7 casualties, they are left with 6-7 infantry, 4 artillery, 2-4 tanks.

    German build should comprise 2 artillery and the rest in infantry. 2 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Italy.

    Germany can now strike them in Ukraine with:

    • 11 tanks, 8 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 BB shore, all planes remaining.  ( In this number, there is 3 infantry and 1 artillery being brought back from Anglo-Egypt via transport ) takes Ukraine.
    • If UK comited it’s Battleship and transport to attack your fleet with now submerged subs, you can punish them with the subs and use aviation there instead ( that’s the trap, see unbaltic from Csub ).
    • The 2 tanks left in Africa blitz to gain territorires.

    ======================================
    Round three.

    Needless to say, Ukraine is taken so strong that no other counter attack can be mounted. In fact, Caucasus can’t be saved at this point. The third round, German will assault it with enough forces adding an additional 4 units and shore bombardment from Italian troops ferried by the fleet into Caucasus.  On top of this, all Japanese fighters will land in Caucasus to render it impregnable. From there its easy to see it’s game over.

    In the case Russia did not counter attack round 2 in Ukraine and massed forces in Caucasus while Germans massed in Ukraine, it’s just uglier. The defence won’t hold against a 15 infantry regiment, a full German 14 panzer division backed by the Italian fleet and Luftwaffe airforce.

    Also, keep in mind that attacking Caucasus on round 3 can be dismissed to simply move forces in West Russia while being reinforced by Japanese fighters on their 3rd turn. This will force either the Russian to attack in west russia on round 4 where you are stronger defensively than if you attacked.  The common result will be for Russia to fall back to Moscow that is now directly threathened, basically gaining Caucasus without one shot fired on round 3 or 4 ( depending if there was a Russian counter attack in Ukraine on round 2).

    Conclusion: Spread this document so no more shall Russia dare to take Ukraine first round for it means a quick Russian demise for sure.

    Eric B. ,
    Montreal



  • Well i consider the Ukraine attack vital to a Russian opening. Im not going to say “must attack”, but its close. The reasons for this are already known by you, as it aggravates you to the point of writing this article!!! Killing that tank and plane cant be passed up. However, why must you bring 3 tanks to caucus? If ll definitely 2 tanks, in dice, it depends on how i feel. If i know I am palying an aggressive germany, i certainly bring 2. With an attack of 3inf, 1art, 2arm, 2fgt vs 3inf, 1arm, 1fgt. Russia is most likely to take ukr with two tanks remaining, 89% to take in general, and 95% to kill that nasty german plane.

    But alright, lets go with your assumption i brought three tanks to ukr. most likely result is three tanks, and 1 art, as calced by the frood calculator. By your own post, and verified by starting units chart, you can only bring 7 inf to a ukraine counter. That counter is 7inf, 5arm, 1fgt. (i gave you much more than you gave yourself. your post has 8inf which isnt possible, and 4 tanks, no AF). The most likely result is 2 inf lost in retaking ukr. so u now have 5inf and 5arm stacked in ukr. Russia likely lost 2 inf in taking w. russia. they have 7inf, 1art, 1arm. Caucus has 2 inf from Kazah, and 3inf, 1 art built, leaving Causus with 5inf, 1 art. My russian round 1 build: 5inf, 1 art, 1arm. This leaves 6inf, 1 arm in moscow.

    My counter can be 12inf, 2art, 2arm, 2fgt. But i prob leave the tanks home to save them from your Tigers. R2, you are left with 3inf, 2 art left in ukr. Since you moved your inf to w. europe, you now have to counter ukr with only 1inf (italy–>balkans–>ukr) and 10 tanks. Keep in mind u havent used any other units for swapping belorussia and karelia, and those territories are now red, also leaving EE open for 1 lonely inf to claim. But given this, lets assume u can  bring the full af into ukr. 5fgt 1 bomber. U have claimed ukr with 9 tanks remaining. My russian round 2 build was 8inf 1 tank. I can hit ukr round 3 with. 6inf from w. russia (moved from moscow on round 2), 2 tanks (saved). 4 inf Caucus, (placed on round2). 1 tank from moscow. 2 fgts. The average result is taht i kill ur 9 tanks for my 8 inf, leaving 2inf, and 3 arm. A +21 ipc exchange for me. I can also choose to just strafe, and save my 3 arm from slaughter.

    But as u can see, u arent taking caucus round 3. And I have laid waste to a total of 15 german tanks in this scenario. meanwhile, germany is now stretched too thin, and have a whopping total of 5 inf in europe!!! So lets add the allied pressure now. UK stacks in Karelia, and USA takes africa, threatening the belly of europe. Germany is the one that losses for its over aggressiveness in this scenario. Leading to a quick German demise. If you play TripleA, we can test this theory if u wish?



  • Quote: " Since you moved your inf to w. europe, you now have to counter ukr with only 1inf"
    I made a typo here, it should read: Move 3 German infantry and AA gun in Eastern Europe, moving the Italian AA gun to replace. Western Europe is left with 2 infantry and 3 fighters protected for the round by the Baltic fleet trap.

    So at start of round 2, it’s not 1 infantry but 4 infantry as i intended it. You have the option of sacrificing the transport to Uk fighters to bring 2 more units from norway in Eastern Europe if you feel the Russian might be harder to crack. Which measn 6 infantry.

    I mention the mediteranan fleet , which is one battleship and 2 transports( 1 from the 8 bid). I explain to ferry back in Ukraine 2 inf 2 artilery in round 2 with BB shore bombardment from Africa Corp. Which has taken Anglo-Egpt one round 1 ( libya troops and Italy troops + air force).

    You also have the option of not going for Africa, bringing right from the start an additional 4 units in round one. So eiter 4 or 8 additional units over 2 round based on if or not you take Anglo-gypt.

    Granted, i made a typo ( i corrected it, thanks) between eastern and western europe for thoses 3 germany infantry but the reality is i can strike Ukraine on round 2 with 10 tanks, 6 infantry and 2 artillery. I can raise the stakes by 6 more units from norway and africa combined if i evacuate it.

    I can play you on triple A, yes, if you want to test it. I’m not sure it will fly as High with you knowing all the details but we’ll see. I did tested it 3 times in actual games and won against good players.



  • Ok, i didnt see the med tran as a bid unit. With your strat, u might as well bypass africa, as u wont hold it past round two anyhow. So u will only have 2 trans of equip on either round 1 or round 2. U can choose for effectiveness. And the norway units wont make it to the fight unscathed.

    But yeah, with an extra tran in the med, i might bypass ukraine, and stack Wrussia Caucus. Never played against two trans in med. Be interesting. However, you could just place the bid units directly into europe, as if u use the med fleet to hit ukr r2, u cant contend africa much longer.



  • PS  -  you should probably note the edits made in the original post so my reply doesnt look retarded  🙂



  • For anglo egypt, 2 transports allows you to take it with 3 infantry, 1 artillery and 2 armor. Add one fighter and one bomber, the Battleship Bismarck sicking the UK destroyer. If i take more than one casualty in A.Egypt, i’ve been seen sometimes scraping one fighter to Hold it strong enough. 😉

    The artillery and other infantry move forward from algeria, which results in the 2 inf 2 artillery i bring back from Africa for Ukraine.

    I almost always go for 1 transport bid, gives me versality while keeping pressure on Caucasus and as well allowing reinforcment into Africa on a normal game. Sometimes i go for an extra sub in atlantic to really waste the whole British navy, but that’s another story i reserve for certain zealous KGF fans.

    It is indeed not viable against a classic Western Russia opening. Anyways, if you play against me and bypass Ukraine, my goal is attained and i won’t use this strat 😉 Russia plays before Germany and it’s really for the german to choose to commit to this gambit. Since you are from what i see a good player, i would not push a strat if it is not suited to the purpose it is meant for. And no, your answer did not seemed retarded, your comments were true.

    Eric



  • :roll:
      I must agree, putting all you eggs in one basket is not going to be anything more than someone making an omlet of you. You have to attack everywhere on the first turn or you will be giving the allies an advantage/s.
    Example:
      Ignore Egypt= The Indian fleet comes into the Med through the suez canal and good-bye Italian navy. Also now you must defend southern Europe from G-2 on.
      Build all shiny new Panzers on G1= 10 tanks, (30 attack/30 defense) vs 20 infantry, (20 attack/40 defense). Don’t overlook the 10 extra infantry units that have to be destroyed to capture vital territory, Territory which earns you IPCs to build things and which when in your control denies the allies precious IPCs to build things.  😉
      My best advice is put some boots on the ground. Buy 3 Inf with your prebuild and place one each in; Ukraine, West Russia, and Belorussia. At least the Russians may pay more dearly for their aggression, and make your counter attacks easier.
    Crazy Ivan  :roll:



  • I find the tone of the thread a bit amusing. Its like you are threatening any Russian player. “You irk me by killing my plane in UKR, and I shall unleash an unstoppable strategy in which you have no defense!”. What is the trigger that make this all possible? the three russian tanks exposed? In ll i bring 2 tanks for sure. Dice i may bring two or may bring three. Either way, on russia round three, i certainly have the counter attack ability to strafe and kill all inf and dig into the tank stack you may have in ukr, and hold caucus.

    Round 3 can have several allied planes in caucus, i usually have a few staged there by round 3 in a normal game. But once i see the german build of all tanks round 1, I certainly buy more allied planes, uk and usa. These planes will have duel purpose, to defend russian territory, and to land on western europe that is very porrly defended at this point. It is possible you lose western europe beyond countering ability the moment you move that stack of 10 tanks on round 2. Once you lose WE, your are making a mad dash for mosocw, or you strangle to death very quickly.



  • Hehe, there is a bit of what you say with the ‘‘irk’’ thing since it was first tailored against a friend. And it worked, i rarely see him attempt ukraine now.

    I don’t think it is unstoppable tough. I’m pretty sure a strategy could be made for UK and USA to respond in kind to this specific strategy. An adequate answer would be to prevent Japan fighters to get there to secure the gain. The thing is not all players will see it coming in the first place and it WILL take an untraditional answer to prevent the loss of Caucasus if Russia committed to Ukraine in round 1.

    Also, in a low luck game you might commit the right force always but in a dice game, going in with the bare minimum forces might play vile tricks on you. That’s why i assumed russian 3 tanks.

    For western Europe, the baltic Fleet is on it’s coast by UK 1st turn. Buying fighters and sending UK fighters to moscow means you don’t attack it and leave your fleet open to a combined attack of the Luftwafe and Kriegsmarine. Chances will be the loss of all transports for round 2, u-boats hitting boats. Even if you attack the Kriegsmarine turn 1, subs will submerge and still be in a position to hit your fleet on turn 2, submerging preventing retreat of your boats if you comited them too.

    Also, It’s not like Germany won’t build on round 2 what they need to be in position to counter a turn 2 Western Europe landing. The forces needed for the Caucasus impulse are already dispatched by that point.

    Well, let me know when you want to play. We’ll try to arrange that and will be easier to demonstrate. 😉



  • Also, what’s the trigger?

    It’s not the tanks in themselves or an unstoppable strategy, it’s simply Russia positioning and it’s troops spread too thin on first round.

    Germany makes a calculated sacrifice on turn 1 in ukraine of 4 tanks and 6 infantry to capitalise on that. This really force the Russian to commit most it’s troops even further right into Ukraine which is by now a dead zone from Germany troops Eastern Europe + tanks produced in Germany.

    Not taking out Ukraine is not really an option either since Japan moved planes into range on turn 1 to be in position to reinforce either it or an early fallen Caucasus on turn 2. Also the whole German army will get massed there which would leave no chances for defenders on turn 3.

    So that’s the trigger point, troops spread too thin getting spread even thinner where you want them to be crushed. One could argue of not taking back Ukraine, or so to speak not taking the bait, and fall back on Moscow with everything, leaving caucasus i guess. Doubt it would do any good to Russia but might be possible to perfom their own impulse trough karelia toward Eastern Europe with UK-USA help. Does not fly too high with me tough.



  • What if the Russian Turn 2 counterattack to Ukraine is a 2-3 round raid and retreats (to either WRus or Cauc) just before exposing the expensive victors ? Then add more arty/inf in Caucasus and tanks in Moscow so Ukraine is a real dead zone. To enter it (and stay alive), Germany needs infantry, LOTS of it. Tanks alone are a big waste !

    2-3 German rounds of building (almost) all inf, followed by 2 rounds of tanks throw an irresistible ‘cumulated charge’ at Ukraine and beyond. Survive at first, then survive safer (land German fighters too), then with the full 4 waves, attack !
    Some little questions are what about the Western threat in the meantime, and what about the ‘hollow’ following the ‘cumulative charge’ if changing back to build inf, slow to reach the front.



  • There is no conceivable way you can sack Caucus on round 2. If you can, u deserve a win sir. Round 3 i find highly unlikely as well. You are right about Ukraine being a dead zone, And the russian player should treat it as such by not commiting all of its troops there. Meanwhile, you dont have enough left over to defend the western front as well. Germany is the one that spreads itself too thin in this scenario.



  • Fun idea.  Needs some clean up 😉

    VS realistically: ( let’s say 2 infantry, 2 artillery, 2 tank on first Russian build )

    • 3 tanks in Ukraine
    • 5 infantry, 2 artillery, 1 AA gun in West Russia
    • 8 infantry, 2 artillery in Caucasus
    • 2 tanks in Moscow

    5inf 2art in WRU?  With a Russian double into WRU/UKR shouldn’t you have about 6inf 1art 1tnk in WRU?  Since UKR is always a kill zone I’m sure most players would rather send 1art rather than 1tnk into UKR even if they were taking it thinly.

    And I think you would have 4inf 2art in CAU, not 8inf 2art.

    The Russian opening needs a bit of work.

    As for the counter, the Baltic is unenhanced, so it’s going to get slagged by the Brits.  That means the UK will build up to a total of 4tra for an invasion of WEU R2 and it can’t be stopped.  It can be countered, but you will have approximately 7inf 2art 3tnk landing in WEU (4tra of UK gear, 2tra of US gear).  The bleed on Germany is immediate.  With a competent Allied transport chain, Berlin is under dire threat R3.

    The tank stack is a fun idea and it has it’s place, but the big tank stack isn’t going to stop a good KGF player.

    A KJF player, on the other hand, who stacks in BUR and moves 2inf to PER on R1, could be vulnerable to this opening.

    Peace



  • You can sack Caucasus round 2 if Russia abandon it to fall back Moscow, that’s how i meant it. But yea, Round 3 is the goal here.

    For western europe scenario, nothing prevent germany to sink the lone transport with the sub at start. Round 2 and round 3 Germany purchases occurs before UK landing in round 3. That’s over 80 ipc in infantry/artillery/tanks waiting for allies landing which will be too weak to resist the counter on round 4. Remember the 8 tanks were purchased round 1 and are already on their way to Ukraine once you place 2nd round puchases of Germany, you do not need to commit round 2 and round 3 germany purchases badly enough to compromise core territories. In fact, you pretty much have what you need in ukraine except maybe 2 infantry and artilery back up from Italy via 2 transports ( IF not bringing back africa corp) .

    Also, you really do seem to take the destruction of baltic fleet granted when it’s not. As well not considering the german air force that is based in western europe. I see no way you can pretend to land there before round 3 and it will be a weak landing if ever so.

    I can pretty much assure you, your fleet will be sunk if it’s only made of 1UK BB, 1 USA destroyer and 3 transports + the odd russian sub. You’ll need to build an UK AC first turn. At least i’ll strafe the transports for sure if no AC are present.

    Let me know your disponibilities and we will play it. Words won’t prove it to you it seems.



  • 😄 😄

    Ok then.

    I can pretty much assure you, your fleet will be sunk if it’s only made of 1UK BB, 1 USA destroyer and 3 transports + the odd russian sub. You’ll need to build an UK AC first turn. At least i’ll strafe the transports for sure if no AC are present.

    Ok, the fleet at a minimum will be 5tra 1sub 2des 1btl.  The best way to approach the French coast is to build in Z08 or Z02 on R1 and if you need the carrier, build it in place.  Do the invasion R2 and build your protection after you land.

    Let me know your disponibilities and we will play it. Words won’t prove it to you it seems.

    Perhaps just not the words you used  😄  I’d love to play.  I just fired up TripA for the first time in many months yesterday, and I’d love a game.  How does 5:30 look to you?  I can play until 8pm which should demonstrate a few things about the first few rounds.

    Since we’re exploring a strat and not just playing, let’s use Low Luck to normalize the dice.  That will give the best approximation of your plan.

    Do you know how to get to the TripA lobby?

    Peace



  • And of course I’ll leave the game open so anyone can drop in and kibbitz in the chat dialog.  All are welcome for trash talking and banter  😄



  • I’m in the lobby now.  I’ll hang out there for a while.  Anyone else, c’mon out if you feel like a chat.

    Peace



  • Mazer, are u taking my game from me!  🙂  I wanted to demonstrate the German bleed!! It would have been fun taking EE with a single russian soldier on Round 3!!!



  • AoE, let’s play man.  I got until 8pm.  I’ll run either side of this strat.  Get in the lobby!



  • Still at office, can’t be there before at least one hour and half 😞

    Im not sure for Low luck, the battle might be normalised but it’s too easy to comit the right forces.  This strategy deals with forcing the ennemy to commit it’s forces, you don’t nomrally hold back when rolling dices.



  • D’oh!

    I’m booked then until Sunday (maybe late Saturday like 11pm, maybe…).

    I’d love to run the strat with you some time.  Let’s see if we can get a couple hours in the next week.

    Peace



  • @Mazer:

    AoE, let’s play man.  I got until 8pm.  I’ll run either side of this strat.  Get in the lobby!

    I dont see you in there



  • Welp, we played and i got two words to sum it all: Japan failure.

    On the bright side, i’m not ever playing a team game with someone i don’t know. I’d rather have played pool and pocketed the 8th ball along with the queue ball.  It really was that bad.

    Guess Caucasus falling on 4th turn in thoses conditions was already good considering you knew from start what i would do. I’ll replay you with dices and playing both axis next time, we’ll see how it goes.



  • yeah japan sure did mess with the results. But to be fair, Caucus didnt really fall on the 4th turn. I left it empty to kill all your german tanks. 🙂 And retook it. However, if the japanese didnt do that ill-advised attack, was it round 7? It still would have been interesting, as berlin was close to falling as well.

    A couple of things on the game.

    1. I didn’t maximize on the opportunities I was presented. I think a better played allied game would have crushed berlin. The mistakes i made were: I bypassed africa with us, giving the germans too much income. I should have staged in algeria with the us, and killed that med fleet early.

    2. I didnt take advantage of the weak eastern front. This has part to do with bad dice. Im actually not sure how i didnt take Ukraine in ll round 1. Thats never happened before. And frood says it shouldnt of happened. hmm actaully a few battles were different on the triple a battle calc compared to frood. Hmm. but heres frood:

    Probability % # units / losses
      69.98% 5: 1 Art, 2 Arm, 2 Fig. 3 Inf. : 9 IPCs
      27.4% 4: 2 Arm, 2 Fig. 3 Inf, 1 Art. : 13 IPCs
      2.62% 3: 1 Arm, 2 Fig. 3 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Arm. : 18 IPCs

    There is no result with 0 land units, which is waht happened!!! But that caused me to stack caucus rather than w russia. Which didnt allow the russians to eat up territory. The uk should have been landing in  northern europe and eating up territory, another error on my part.

    3)  Ur post does say round 2 you would buy 2inf 2art and the rest tanks. You instead bought all inf and art waiting for the WE landing that u new was coming. if u bought the tanks, berlin would have been in trouble much faster.

    So as in summary, i didnt properly bleed the Germans, and u had way too much income. Which allowed u to place way too many inf in the west. But even as it went, berlin was at risk of falling that game. So yeah we should do it again, with you in control of all of axis.


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