UK Fighter to attack Japan's Trn (59)

Part of it all depends on your opisition.  My cousin and I used to play all the time and it got very repetive because he would stack troops in the same places that he knew I was going to go for. (Moscow)

One day I had Germany hit England first caught him very off guard.

The same thing can happen when up agienst the PC version.  (I know it is not the revised version) When I played it all the time I knew the opening moves the computer was going to play.  It got very boring so I stoped playing years ago for that reason.

The point is I agree with the above you need to try it all because if you have a good oposing player that is what he/she/they are going to do.

-LT

Indian IC in R1 is a very bad idea. japan can easily push everything for it. Yes, you slow japan rush toward Moscow, but u cant hold it, giving Japan a free IC 2 spaces from caucus, and three from moscow. Meanwhile, you also slowed UK in europe, making Russia that much weaker, and Germany that much stronger.

As for the japanese tran, I like using the destroyer to take it out. But if Russia has stacked Bury, the plane might be a good alternative, depending on what ur doing with the Indian fleet.

I used to think killing that tran was a must do for UK, but now im trying toher things. I let it live, combine entire UK pacific fleet in the south, with 2 inf from Australia. Leaving that plane on the ac will protect the fleet from japanese attack. You can now land 2 more inf in india or africa. Or ….  attack FIC with 3 inf 1fgt r1. u r 50/50 to win. And i often take the territory doing this, whcih kills a japanese plane, and slows them down. It wouyld be unlikely Japan could take india by round 3 if played right.

send the destroyer instead. The fig is more useful.

I prefer to send the maximum fleet possible to SZ59…

It ties up Japan forces on the J1 Counter, and makes the J1 movements far more predictable for the Allied moves in Round 2…

I like to use the fighter in a counter against Egypt. If that proves unnecessary, I’ll send it to Russia.

As for an Indian IC, if I am the Axis, I squeal with glee if I see it on UK1. That means no Egypt counter, so Germany goes hog wild in Africa. As Japan, the IC will likely be mine by Round 3, even if Russia sends troops to aid the Brits, or the US built an IC in Sink…a full KJF might make me regret taking it as Americas navy approaches, but combined with Africa, UK will be heavily marginalized, leaving Russia standing alone against an income heavy Germany.

Egypt counter is not mandatory. There are many ways of fighting Africa without counter.

Anyway, better if you conquer India in J4 (in J3 is unconquerable if Allies know what are they doing), or Japan is toasted with USA conquering islands. Soviets can survive with UK and USA sending their other forces to Europe (8 land units for USA in total, about 4-6 each turn for UK).

I agree with Petrucci08. Don’t risk the fighter when the DD is far less useful in the long run.

Counterattacking Egypt with the fighter is always the right move if it is in your favor. Although, there are times when an Egypt counterattack is not a good move or even necessary, such as when Germany takes it with more than 3 units or doesn’t take it at all :? . Then, the fighter is free to be used in the Pacific if you so choose. Personally, when I can’t use it to retake Egypt, I prefer using it to try and hamstring Japan early as opposed to saving it for later use.

I like the move where you attack the sz45 SS with it and land it on the US CV in sz52. It has the potential to really put the Japanese in a bad situation if they attack sz52.

I also like the move Switch suggested. It is rarely used(most people try to save the CV by sending it toward Africa), but it can force the Japanese to spread themselves thin or not secure all of their first turn objectives. My biggest problem with it is that if the sz59 TP hits, then you’re stuck in a weak position with Japan capable of sending a decent amount of units(including a BB) and still have the units necessary to attack China and sz52.

A move I’ve been considering is similar to Switch’s but leaves you with an out if the sz59 TP hits. Attack sz59 with the sz35 DD and fighter. That way, your entire force isn’t comitted if the TP hits. You can still land the fighter in China and send the CV/TP away from danger. But if the TP misses, you can send the CV to sz59 to pick up the fighter and use the sz35 TP to block the Japanese sz37 fleet by putting it in sz36.

And for the record, the India IC is usually a bad idea because you don’t exactly know how UK1 will turn out. You could be immediately opening the game in a weak position if your UK1 attacks go poorly. And Germany is hard enough to contain without having to bleed off UK money every turn to support an IC.

Plus, against the lone fighter or DD, the sz59 TP survives that combat about 1 in 6 times. It is such an important unit that if you are going to attack it, send 2 units and make sure it sinks.

@U-505:

And for the record, the India IC is usually a bad idea because you don’t exactly know how UK1 will turn out. You could be immediately opening the game in a weak position if your UK1 attacks go poorly.

But this is the magic of the ICs: if things go bad, you can still deploy the IC in South Africa or Australia. Any of them is good (maybe Australia more tricky, but also more powerful than S. Africa)

One variation on u-505 opening that i like to use. I dont think its been mentioned yet:

dd to take out the tran. Sub to take out jap sub in sz45. tran from australia to take New gunea. Tran from india to take Borneo. AC to block retake of borneo by placing in sz 49. Your are only 2 to 1 favorite to take borneo with 2 inf vs 1, but when u do, it sure slows japan down. And with this open, they have so many targets, there no way they can pearl.

@AxisOfEvil:

One variation on u-505 opening that i like to use. I dont think its been mentioned yet:

dd to take out the tran. Sub to take out jap sub in sz45. tran from australia to take New gunea. Tran from india to take Borneo. AC to block retake of borneo by placing in sz 49. Your are only 2 to 1 favorite to take borneo with 2 inf vs 1, but when u do, it sure slows japan down. And with this open, they have so many targets, there no way they can pearl.

What are you doing with the fighter? Leaving with CV?

Options:

Attack the sub and land on US CV
Help with one of the two land grabs, then land it on the CV
Help with Transport attack then land it in China or USSR.

Other?

@dagger:

@AxisOfEvil:

One variation on u-505 opening that i like to use. I dont think its been mentioned yet:

dd to take out the tran. Sub to take out jap sub in sz45. tran from australia to take New gunea. Tran from india to take Borneo. AC to block retake of borneo by placing in sz 49. Your are only 2 to 1 favorite to take borneo with 2 inf vs 1, but when u do, it sure slows japan down. And with this open, they have so many targets, there no way they can pearl.

What are you doing with the fighter? Leaving with CV?

Options:

Attack the sub and land on US CV
Help with one of the two land grabs, then land it on the CV
Help with Transport attack then land it in China or USSR.

Other?

I usually position the uk fighter in caucus so i can retake india, when/if japan takes it light.

@Funcioneta:

But this is the magic of the ICs: if things go bad, you can still deploy the IC in South Africa or Australia. Any of them is good (maybe Australia more tricky, but also more powerful than S. Africa)

I’ve never actually tried an Aus IC, but I don’t think it’s a good option. Probably even worse than biting the 15 IPC bullet and just dropping an IC in Ind.

SAf has been appealing for a while and I’ve seen it work ok, but never tried it myself. I think it’s about half as bad as a UK1 Ind complex. Yeah, it can help the UK contest Africa, but it costs 15. Right there it better save the UK 7.5 1IPC territories or it’s not even paying for itself. Then you gotta factor in the 6-8 (maybe more?) IPCs it sucks up every turn. Meanwhile, the TTs (triple IPC territories, if I’m getting the name right) are up in Europe. It’s usually not gonna be worth fighting over Africa.

Oh, and a UK1 IC is hardly ever a good idea either. I maybe saw one game where an Ind and Sin ICs working in tandem with loads of Allied air were kicking butt. I need to find that game and study its genius.

@AxisOfEvil:

One variation on u-505 opening that i like to use. I dont think its been mentioned yet: dd to take out the tran. Sub to take out jap sub in sz45. tran from australia to take New gunea. Tran from india to take Borneo. AC to block retake of borneo by placing in sz 49. Your are only 2 to 1 favorite to take borneo with 2 inf vs 1, but when u do, it sure slows japan down. And with this open, they have so many targets, there no way they can pearl.

The Borneo landing is basically as good as falling back to Kenya. You often put the ac in the way to prevent a J1 retake, but then you might get 4IPCs, and deny Japan the same! I prefer Kenya, but it’s close.

But I don’t like the New Guinea attack. You take 2inf from the defense of Aus. You lose the transport. Japan will take that thing back by J3 at the latest. (+2, -2.) That’s it. Or you could (maybe even all of these in order): run east and then come back with your 2inf and put them back in Aus, thereby delaying Japan who was only read for 2inf in Aus (+2, -2); land the inf in Africa (+3/6); sail the trn up to UK just in time for transport overload (+8). So up to +13 for you, and up to -2 for Japan, just as a rough breakdown.

Having to retake New Guinea is a headache, but at that point you’re giving Japan too much incentive. As Japan I’d normally ignore NZ, even if it was undefended. With NG to also take, Japan might as well throw a party and take NZ, too. Yet another mark against UK landing in NG.

@U-505:

Plus, against the lone fighter or DD, the sz59 TP survives that combat about 1 in 6 times. It is such an important unit that if you are going to attack it, send 2 units and make sure it sinks.

Funny how I see players in this forum NOT attack the SZ59 Japanese transport.
That confuses me  :?  :?  :?

@hyogoetophile:

…
SAf has been appealing for a while and I’ve seen it work ok, but never tried it myself. I think it’s about half as bad as a UK1 Ind complex. Yeah, it can help the UK contest Africa, but it costs 15. Right there it better save the UK 7.5 1IPC territories or it’s not even paying for itself. Then you gotta factor in the 6-8 (maybe more?) IPCs it sucks up every turn. Meanwhile, the TTs (triple IPC territories, if I’m getting the name right) are up in Europe. It’s usually not gonna be worth fighting over Africa.
…

Leaving Africa to Germany while conquiring so called Triple territories still shift the IPC balance in favour of Germany, I think.

Australian IC is an intersting idea because force Japan to divert forces from the mainland (ships, land units and aircraft) to take an IC the has a low usefulness. Also the one in south Africa is not so useful to Japan. IMHO an IC in India is a gift for Japanese player. But If you are going hard against Japan with a KJF it could be interesting.

@AxisOfEvil:

One variation on u-505 opening that i like to use. I dont think its been mentioned yet:

dd to take out the tran. Sub to take out jap sub in sz45. tran from australia to take New gunea. Tran from india to take Borneo. AC to block retake of borneo by placing in sz 49. Your are only 2 to 1 favorite to take borneo with 2 inf vs 1, but when u do, it sure slows japan down. And with this open, they have so many targets, there no way they can pearl.

I would not make that assumption about Pearl.
Japan has plenty of ships/planes to clear Pearl and sink the UK AC/ftr if it is around and still take China at the very least.

Killing the US units at Pearl and China are more important then the British units.
Depending on UK1 Surviviors my hierarchy of attacks would be:
1 - Pearl
2 - Chi
3 - UK AC with/without Ftr
Then depending on risk I’m willing to take and what I have left
4 - UK DD (sz 59)
5 - trn at ngu
6 - sub at sol

IIRC you can safely do the the Sz 59 attack as well, leaving only 5 and 6 potentially for J2 if they linger in range.

In this scenerio Japan’s purchases and placement are key.  I’ll ususally go some combination of DD/trn/AC/ftr depending on the layout.

@axis_roll:

@U-505:

Plus, against the lone fighter or DD, the sz59 TP survives that combat about 1 in 6 times. It is such an important unit that if you are going to attack it, send 2 units and make sure it sinks.

Funny how I see players in this forum NOT attack the SZ59 Japanese transport.
That confuses me  :?  :?  :?

I am one that usually doesn’t attack it.  :-D
I am not opposed to the attack but at the moment I prefer to unify in Sz 30.

@DarthMaximus:

@axis_roll:

@U-505:

Plus, against the lone fighter or DD, the sz59 TP survives that combat about 1 in 6 times. It is such an important unit that if you are going to attack it, send 2 units and make sure it sinks.

Funny how I see players in this forum NOT attack the SZ59 Japanese transport.
That confuses me  :?  :?  :?

I am one that usually doesn’t attack it.   :-D
I am not opposed to the attack but at the moment I prefer to unify in Sz 30.

I really don’t know how I feel about the sz30 move. Egypt always takes priority for me if it’s doable. I guess it’s nice to save that fleet and be able to slow Japan down with it’s mere presence, but it seems to be a bad idea to me to let Germany keep Egypt and Japan keep that TP just for a fleet that has a negligible benefit when it finally makes it back to Europe. By the time it gets there Germany is usually no threat to the Allied navies. The TP’s do help, though.

For a player of your caliber, DM, I don’t question that move as much because I know you you’ll jump on an opening that presents itself. But for most other players, I’m with axis_roll. Seems like a strange thing not to sink that sz59 TP.

Australian IC is very powerfull, I was amazed the good it was the game I tried. However, z59 must be sunk even in this case, because you risk lose Australia in J2 if you don’t reinforce enough.

There are few cases when z59 should not be attacked:

• For KJF, having 2 less units in Asia mainland in J1 is vital in any case
• For KGF, is still usefull for slow Japan, and that dd, when reach to Atlantic, usually has no use
• The only case I would not attack 59 is if I plan unify fleets in Indian ocean, but I’m not a fan of unify fleets

@U-505:

@DarthMaximus:

@axis_roll:

@U-505:

Plus, against the lone fighter or DD, the sz59 TP survives that combat about 1 in 6 times. It is such an important unit that if you are going to attack it, send 2 units and make sure it sinks.

Funny how I see players in this forum NOT attack the SZ59 Japanese transport.
That confuses me  :?  :?  :?

I am one that usually doesn’t attack it.   :-D
I am not opposed to the attack but at the moment I prefer to unify in Sz 30.

I really don’t know how I feel about the sz30 move. Egypt always takes priority for me if it’s doable. I guess it’s nice to save that fleet and be able to slow Japan down with it’s mere presence, but it seems to be a bad idea to me to let Germany keep Egypt and Japan keep that TP just for a fleet that has a negligible benefit when it finally makes it back to Europe. By the time it gets there Germany is usually no threat to the Allied navies. The TP’s do help, though.

For a player of your caliber, DM, I don’t question that move as much because I know you you’ll jump on an opening that presents itself. But for most other players, I’m with axis_roll. Seems like a strange thing not to sink that sz59 TP.

I should probably clarify, I generally assume Egy isn’t counterable.  If Ger has at least 3 units in Egy it is doubtful I’ll counter, but given the option I may end up doing the spread attack of Egy, Sz 59 with DD and sub vs. sub at Sol.

But with 2-3 units bid to Afr you really can’t touch Egy unless you get some serious dice in defense.  In this case I’ll probably pull 2 inf from Aus and unify in Sz 30 and pull back to Per from Ind.  This can make for some sweet counter moves on UK2 since Egy, Iea, Trj, Per, and Ind are all within reach of at least 4 inf + planes.

If Japan hits Sz 30, I should take out some ftrs and at the very least an AC and BB are out of position and I’ll probably have a legit shot at a Pearl counter which could lead to a SJF/KJF pending J1 results and board layout.

If the Sz 30 fleet is not attacked on J1, it makes a great deterant against Japan going after Afr early.  I don’t really use it for Europe, more to control the Egy/Trj area and then transport my early UK afr landings to Cauc or help kill the Ger bb/trn (if I can go to the Med) or try to maintain a threat in the Mid East.  Japan can potentially sink it but it’ll take them some time and effort to get things in range to make sure it is a battle worth fighting, but UK can always run away at that point.

@Funcioneta:

Australian IC is very powerfull, I was amazed the good it was the game I tried.

I have play the Australien IC once, and it was successful. US also goes pacific, and I unite both UK and US fleet at Solomons and start island hopping.

But I also have seen many problem in that approach: The UK has lost IPC in Africa quick, and if the germans would add some TRA to SZ 5 (they did it not in my games, but what if they do?), then the UK need most of his IPC on homeland for one turn at minimum. UK must invest at UK in home fleet and ground units to get some IPC in africa back and for the case of german fleet unification. And there are not enough IPC for all these.

Do you went pacific with US? How do you have handled Africa? How do you have germany stopped from become a monster and roll over the russians? What units do you have purchased at Australia?

Many question … :)

First round in Australia I think were 1 fig, 1 inf (Jen menaced invasion). After that, 1 fig each round for landing in indian or USA ACs. 1 sea/air unit is enough for outproducing Japan with aid of USA (I also save australian fleet).

About Africa, I was lucky, because Jen risked too much and didn’t destroy Gibraltar BB, so I could kill the italian fleet in UK1. Jen had some mistakes and also some bad rolls (I had Man and FIC ICs in R2, I think).

In fact, it was about 10-15 ipcs to Australia, the rest for Africa and Europe.

With less luck, Australia IC can be more tricky, I know, but menaces taking East Indies in round 4 to 6. Soviets can usually survive that with some help from UK and token USA forces (Japan send less units to west or East Indies can be easily taken, they must buy ships).