1939: World at War

@TG:

The Japan already had their hands tied up in China and Burma/India – I doubt they could’ve done much good against the Russkies.

The Russian army was much weaker than you make it out to be. A perfect example comes after Russia captured Poland in 1939. They fought the Russo-Finnish War agaisnt the Finns and outnumbered them 5 to 1. Yet the Russians still lost the war. Not only did the Russians lose then, when they did capture the Axis powers such as Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary, they still didn’t capture Finland.

Uh, Russia never lost the war with Finland, the Finnish just managed to inflict terrible causalities on the Russians and blunt their offensive for quite awhile (due to the great winter warefare and mountainous employed by the Fins). However, Finland did eventually have to make territory concessions to the Russians.

They only did so because they knew that eventually the Russians would be able to succeed. The Finns were very poorly equipped to fight the Russians so they decided on concessions. This is just an example of the inadequacy of the Russian military before and during the intial phases of Operation Barbarossa.

The Russians were caught unprepared mainly because of the lack of good generals killed off by Stalin in his bloody purges, assimilating tanks into the infantry, like the French, and the fact that Stalin was unwilling to believe the Germans had attacked. But as time progressed, the Russians became much better prepared and better led. The Russian military was inadequate, but they had the time and space to learn from their inital mistakes.

By 1944 the Russians had blown there bolt economically speaking by 45, in aircraft alone production dropped from 17,913 fighters in 1944 to only 8.849 in 1945, Ground Attack went from 11,100 in 44 to a mere 5, 484 in 45. Frankly the Russians Economy was strained to the breaking point by 1945 even with substancial allied help. In one alone situtaion Russia would have had to face a Germany economy which went from producing only 10, 808 fifghters in 1943 to 25, 285 in 44, from 5,570 tanks in 43 to 8,337 in 44 add in the non effect of allied bombing causing temporary displacement in the conomic effort and you can see that germany was more than capable of matching Russian out put. Ask any body who plays AH’s Third Riech and they will be sure to tell you once the Germans get up off the ground it can get screay real quick.

Then add in without a western front that wold have freed up approxamatly 10 to 15 front line heavy divisions for use on the eastern front which could have A.) countered the Bagration offensive or B.) enabled Germany to launch her own attack in 44. Russian Mass is also a Myth, while some sectors of front were heavily reinforced others were weak and spoty and if the Germans had had the ability (Created by an unhindered economy and lack of second front) to exploite them a balance could have been achieved.

This also ignored the fact the entire Russian supply system relied upon the use of American made trucks and light vehicles, how else do you think they got those huge numbers of tanks? Russian manpower was nearly exhausted as well as evidenced by the large numbers of Asiatic troops, largely considered unreliable by the Red Army, in Europe in 45.

russia would have died without the allies

EXACTLY my friend. :lol:

By 1944 the Russians had blown there bolt economically speaking by 45, in aircraft alone production dropped from 17,913 fighters in 1944 to only 8.849 in 1945, Ground Attack went from 11,100 in 44 to a mere 5, 484 in 45. Frankly the Russians Economy was strained to the breaking point by 1945 even with substancial allied help. In one alone situtaion Russia would have had to face a Germany economy which went from producing only 10, 808 fifghters in 1943 to 25, 285 in 44, from 5,570 tanks in 43 to 8,337 in 44 add in the non effect of allied bombing causing temporary displacement in the conomic effort and you can see that germany was more than capable of matching Russian out put. Ask any body who plays AH’s Third Riech and they will be sure to tell you once the Germans get up off the ground it can get screay real quick.

Very doubtful. And German supplies and weaponry weren’t so much the problem but finding enough oil and manpower. There was no way that Germany could’ve caught up to Russia in terms of output. German tank production never broke 30,000 while the Russians were able to produce over 110,000 tanks. By 1943, the Russians could’ve ended all production and still have a numerically superior ratio compared with Germany during the entire war. As for the aircraft production numbers, I’m unsure where you found them from. Let’s look at Aircraft Production:

Country 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
USSR 10382 10565 15735 25436 34900 40300 20900
Germany 8295 10826 12401 15409 24807 40593 7540

(Remember the war ended in Europe in May 1945)
Plus the Germans had little pilots left that late in the war or the fuel to fly their planes.

Then add in without a western front that wold have freed up approxamatly 10 to 15 front line heavy divisions for use on the eastern front which could have A.) countered the Bagration offensive or B.) enabled Germany to launch her own attack in 44. Russian Mass is also a Myth, while some sectors of front were heavily reinforced others were weak and spoty and if the Germans had had the ability (Created by an unhindered economy and lack of second front) to exploite them a balance could have been achieved.

I doubt that even by freeing up units in WE, could the Germans launch a offensive. The second German offensive in 1942 was nowhere as powerful as the one launched the previous year. The Germans tried to exploit sectors of the front like the salient at Kursk - they failed miserably. SUD made the comment that even if the Russians lost ever AFV thrown at Kursk while the Germans none, it still wouldn’t have made a dent to the outcome of the war.

This also ignored the fact the entire Russian supply system relied upon the use of American made trucks and light vehicles, how else do you think they got those huge numbers of tanks? Russian manpower was nearly exhausted as well as evidenced by the large numbers of Asiatic troops, largely considered unreliable by the Red Army, in Europe in 45.

When I made the comment, I meant Russia could’ve defeated Germany by herself (on one Front), the Allies still would’ve sent equipment though wouldn’t have sent forces to SE or WE.

I dougt Russia could’ve gone by itself, with America and Britain sending them stuff yea it’s quite possible. Russia needed them to create their superior force over the Germans.

@TG:

with what force?
the one occupied with the Germans?

The Russians had a 30 million man army. I think an amble force could’ve been diverted to hold the Japanese - at least until the Germans were pushed back.

I just stoped reading the posts when I came to this one……
30 million man army… :roll: no.

germany should have took the cacus not stalingrd

I just stoped reading the posts when I came to this one……
30 million man army… no.

Then what was the total enlistment of the Red Army then? :o

I thought it was 40 millon?

germany should have took the cacus not stalingrd

The reason Germany attacked Stalingrad was because if they had immediately taken Caucuses the Russians would’ve counterattacked from Stalingrad. So they decided to take out the threat and then go for where it’s rich.

I didn’t think it was quite 30 mil but a big #.

they invaded stalingrad because hitler wanted to get the moral of stalin down.

40 million? Maybe…

Anyways, Stalingrad was the gateway to the rich oil fields of the Soviet Union. The Germans had to take it.

What source of information did you guys get your 30-40 million man army for Russia?
Please let me know.

Various articles, though I don’t have any on me right now. Anybody care to do a search on it?

At the beginning of “Barbarosa” The Germans had 153 divisions at the Russian border.
The total man power was about 3’050,000.
Russian at the time was about 4’700.000 strong.

That’s a far cry from 30 million.
However, if your suggesting that Russia mobilized 30 million over the coarse of the war….well thats a different and I admit my mistake.
In saying that, they certainly didn’t have acess to 30 million at any one given time.
And on top of all that, German mobilization through the war, was around 20 million.
Which, when compared to Russian mobilization, is not huge difference considering the quality of the Germany military.

At the beginning of “Barbarosa” The Germans had 153 divisions at the Russian border.
The total man power was about 3’050,000.
Russian at the time was about 4’700.000 strong.

Well that was Barbarosa where the Russians were totally unprepared (mainly because of Stalin). The Russians did have a large standing army, though it needed to be modernized.

However, if your suggesting that Russia mobilized 30 million over the coarse of the war….well thats a different and I admit my mistake.

No problem, though I think the total number was much greater than that. I think at one time the Russians mustered 10-12 million. Anybody care to do some research?

Which, when compared to Russian mobilization, is not huge difference considering the quality of the Germany military.

The Russians had a very quality military too after 1942.