Can artillery sink a sub ?



  • In the “attack sea units” phase, can an artillery on an island shoot at a sub in adjacent sea zone ?


  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    Yes they can.


  • Official Q&A

    Indeed.



  • So what incident in the real world did a 70 mm howitzer on land sink a sub out in the sea ?

    Was this common in the Pacific ?


  • Official Q&A

    Nope.  Perhaps you would enjoy my variant sub rules: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/256621



  • Hi Kev, you just got yourselves one applaud.

    About subs, I think there should be Anti Sub Weapon ASW too on the box

    Destroyer:
    Air attack- 1 die
    Sea attack- 1 die
    ASW attack- 3 dice
    Land attack- 0

    Cruiser:
    Air attack- 1 die
    Sea attack- 2 dice
    ASW attack- 0
    Land attack - 1 die



  • or maybe subs too should have resilience like the other ships ?


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Adlertag:

    So what incident in the real world did a 70 mm howitzer on land sink a sub out in the sea ?

    During World War II, American Naval Officer, Commander Fluckey, sailing the Submarine USS Barb successfully sank a Japanese Train  on July 22, 1945 in Patience Bay, off the coast of Karafuto, Japan.

    Does that help any?



  • Now you too got yourselves an applaud.

    Keep on and you soon have more applauds than you have smites.

    (BTW who are smiting you this much ? 319 smites ? Wow ! Hog of the board.)


  • Official Q&A

    @Adlertag:

    or maybe subs too should have resilience like the other ships ?

    I don’t think so.  I’m still trying to figure out why destroyers have it.



  • …or why cruisers have it, HMS Hood sank after one hit, while the big battleships like Bismarck and Yamato sank after hours of bombardment and hundreds of hits from big guns and torpedoes. Make you think this is just a game or something.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Adlertag:

    (BTW who are smiting you this much ? 319 smites ? Wow ! Hog of the board.)

    I have three people who smite me twice a day every day.  They’ve been going at it for months now.  I know who they are, but I’m not dedicated enough to smite them twice a day each.  It’s hard enough remembering to applaud a certain group of people every day. 🙂


  • Official Q&A 2007 AAR League

    @Krieghund:

    @Adlertag:

    or maybe subs too should have resilience like the other ships ?

    I don’t think so.  I’m still trying to figure out why destroyers have it.

    I was wondering that myself and agree on the subs.

    I think the sub rule in this game is simple and clean.



  • According to US Warships of WW2 by Paul Silverstone:
    The USS Herring (SS 233) "sunk by Japanese shore batteries off Matsuwa Island, Kuriles, 1st June 1944.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Herring_(SS-233)

    Herring’s exact manner of loss can be determined from these records also. Two more merchant ships, Hiburi Maru and Iwaki Maru, were sunk while at anchor in Matsuwa Island on the morning of 1 June 1944. In a counter-attack, enemy shore batteries scored two direct hits on the submarine’s conning tower and “bubbles covered an area about 5 meters wide, and heavy oil covered an area of approximately 15 miles.”

    And for modern combat;

    The Argentinan Frigate Guericco was hit several times by a Carl Gustav Anti Tank Rocket and several 66 mm weapons during the Argentine Invasion of South Georgia Island. Although not sunk.

    http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/South-Georgia.html

    From this web site.

    Trombetta now realized that there was in fact a very healthy British military presence at Grytiken and ordered Alfonso to bring Guerrico closer in and  to bombard King Edward Point. The Argentines now knew where Mills and his Marines where positioned and opened fire with Guerrico’s 100 mm semi-automatic gun. But even at maximum depression the shells smashed into the scree behind the plateau. Frustrated, Alfonso brought Guerrico closer in, broadside to the Royal Marines. Mills waited until the frigate was 550 meters from his position, then ordered his men to open fire with every weapon they had. A Type A69 frigate is a very big target and the Guerrico shook under the impact of thousands of rounds ripping though her thin structure.

    Marine David Combes, who was normally the ships steward on Endurance now placed his name in naval history books by firing his Carl Gustav 84 mm anti tank weapon at the Guerrico.  The Royal Marines watched as the 10lb projectile staggered across the waves and then, on it’s last legs, smashed into Guerrico’s hull just above the waterline, sending up a column of white water.  They then heard a loud rumble come from inside the ship. Below decks Argentine damage control parties struggled to stop the flow of water that was now coming though the hole.

    The explosion killed one Argentine sailor and wounded several others. It also destroyed many electrical cables, including the ones used to power the 100 mm gun’s traverse mechanism making the gun useless at this close range. The aft 40 mm was still working until Marines Parsons and Chubb cut down the Argentine gun crew with their LMG. Alfonso was having a hard time trying to manoeuvre the big ship quickly inside the small bay. He knew he had to get out of the bay quickly. As the ship came about, Sergeant Major Leach lying on a table up stairs in Shackleton House, took his time and fired 15 shots into the bridge with his sniper rifle. This caused panic and confusion as officers and sailors trying to steer the ship had to take cover. With the ship turned,  Alfonso steered the ship out of the bay, but she had to run the gauntlet of fire from the Royal Marines again before getting out of range. Marine Combes let go another 84 mm at the frigate that smashed into the hull below the Exocets. The Marines also managed to hit Guerrico at least twice with 66 mm rockets. Corporal Peters was severely wounded in the arm while standing to fire his 66 mm. The rifle shot had come from one of the Argentine Marines in the buildings near Shackleton House.

    Guerrico finally made her way out of range.  Later an Argentine officer counted over 1,000 hits to her structure. The Royal Marines had taken on a warship, and won the fight. While the ship to shore battle had been taking place, Bussan’s Alouette helicopter had been ferrying more Argentine Marines ashore, out of range of the British. These Marines soon advanced and joined the others in Grytiken. Guerrico now out of British range managed to fire off a salvo that bracketed Mills positions. Mills knew he had proved a point and informed his men he intended to surrender. This decision did not go down well with the veteran Sergeant Major Leach, but he obeyed his officer and passed the word to all the Marines to cease-fire.

    Also the British Frigate Glamorgan was hit by a land launched exocet during the same war.



  • In 1944 a british sub sank a german sub, but this was not common. Anyway, in A&A it is common that subs attack and sink other subs, a rule I always disliked. Now it has become common that artillery on land sink subs too. Where may this end ?



  • USS Corvina (ss 226)  Torpedoed and sunk by Japanese Sub I-176 sw of Truk, 16 Nov, 1943

    USS Grunion (ss 216) Missing , probably sunk by Japanese Sub I-25 off Kiska 30 July, 1942 (wreck found in 2007, loss a mystery)

    USS Snook (ss 279) Missing in Okinawa Area, April 1945 , possibly sunk by Japanese Sub. (I-56?)

    From both US Warships of WW2 by Paul Silverstone and Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr

    And honorable mentions for sub vs sub  😉

    USS Tang (ss 306) and USS Tullibee (ss 284) : Sunk by their Own Torpedo 24 Oct, 1944 and 26 Mar 1944 respectively. That’s a bummer!

    Turnabout is fair play,

    IJN Sub RO 113 Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Batfish off Babuyah 15 October 1945
    IJN I-64  Torpedoed and sunk by US sub Triton off Kagoshima 17 May 1942
    IJN I-66  Torpedoed and sunk by British Sub Telemachus off Singapore 17 July 1944
    IJN I-68  Probably torpedoed by US Sub Scamp 27 July 1943
    IJN I-73 Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Gudgeon off Midway 27 January 1942
    IJN I-183 Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Pogy 28/29 April 1944
    IJN I-28 Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Tautog off Truk 17 May 1942
    IJN I-29 Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Sawfish 26 July 1944
    IJN I-34 Torpedoed and sunk by British sub Taurus 13 Nov 1943

    The above from Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1869-1945 by Hansgeorg Jentschura

    And I had to stop looking…



  • Need to add the following IJN subs:

    I-42 Torpedoed and sunk by US sub Tunny 23 Mar 1944
    I-22 Torpedoed and sunk by US sub Skate 10 June 1945
    I-365 Torpedoed and sunk by US sub Scabbardfish off Yokosuka 28 Nov 1944
    I-354 Probably Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Sea Devil 14/15 Sep 1944
    I-371 Probably Torpedoed and sunk by US Sub Lagarto 24 Feb 1945
    I-373 Torpedoed and sunk by US sub Spikefish 14 Aug 1945

    This is what I found as to sub sinking sub in the Pacific, I may have missed some but the IJN seemed to have the worst of it…



  • Germany build 1200 subs, 860 was sunk by destroyers, and 4 by other subs


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Not Sure about Subs getting sunk by Artillery… But I remember in Vietnam, at the Battle of Khe Sanh,  There were major problems with getting in any kind of air support.

    The American Base at Khe Sanh was being so heavily shelled by Artillery,  that incoming aircraft were almost garunteed to be struck down by regular artillery shells.

    Let’s not forget that Artillery is very versatile, and that a common combat theme in WWII (which still applies today) was to be creative.  Sometimes you just use what you gotta use to get the job done.


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