Does anyone really want to know this?



  • U.S. fired first on day of Pearl Harbor
    Divers discover Japanese sub sunk on Dec. 7, 1941

    Michael Friscolanti
    National Post

    Friday, August 30, 2002

    A sub sunk before the attack on Pearl Harbor has been found.
    Six decades after Japanese fighter planes launched a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, a team of underwater scientists has stumbled upon proof that the Americans actually fired the first shot that fateful morning.

    For 60 years, historians have wrangled over which side drew first blood, but the debate appears to be over with the discovery of a dilapidated Japanese sub believed to have been shot down an hour before the infamous aerial attack began.

    Divers with the Hawaii Undersea Research Laboratory (HURL) – using two deep-dive subs originally built in Vancouver – came across the 24-metre craft during a routine training exercise Wednesday morning.

    “We’ve known it’s always been out there, and little by little we’ve been methodically eliminating targets,” said Terry Kerby, who piloted one of the subs that discovered the wreckage. “It was more than just a piece of steel on the bottom for us. It was something that we’ve been looking for for a long time.”

    Although Dec. 7, 1941, is most widely remembered for the Japanese assault on the U.S. naval base in Hawaii, the American military has long maintained the confrontation actually began in the water.

    Shortly before 7 a.m., an American warship said it noticed an enemy midget sub, one of five in the area that morning, taking bearings near the surface.

    After a short pursuit, the crew of the USS Ward said it opened fire on the unidentified sub, knocking it out of commission.

    “We have attacked, fired upon and dropped depth charges operating in defensive sea area,” said a message from the Ward.

    But, unfortunately for the crew, the mystery sub was never found. Even a number of high-profile attempts to uncover its whereabouts – including a recent National Geographic expedition headed by Robert Ballard, the man who found the Titanic – proved fruitless.

    But that all changed just before noon on Wednesday.

    Mr. Kerby, HURL’s chief pilot for the past 20 years, was operating one of the undersea subs approximately 365 metres below the surface. The dive was part of a routine training mission, but, like always, the veteran explorer was keeping an eye out for the well-hidden sub.

    During the dive, his craft, dubbed Pisces IV – which was purchased three years ago from Fisheries and Oceans Canada – moved aside so the other sub, Pisces V, could pass.

    “I told them to go ahead and we’d come around,” Mr. Kerby recalled yesterday. "Then they just moved a short distance away and stopped and said: ‘We found it.’ "

    Mr. Kerby immediately turned his sub around and pointed its headlights on the newly discovered craft, which is rusted and slightly leaning to its port side. He was certain he was looking at the missing sub because it had a bullet hole in the conning tower and both its torpedoes were still intact.

    The bodies of the two crew members are believed to be somewhere inside.

    “It was incredible,” said Mr. Kerby, who spent three hours filming the wreckage. “We got some of the most incredible images, beautiful stuff.”

    But not everyone, historians say, will appreciate the beauty.

    While the discovery vindicates the crew of the USS Ward – some suggested the sub was never even hit – it underlines the disastrous communications breakdown that occurred that morning at Pearl Harbor.

    The USS Ward sent two messages to its superiors, warning that an enemy sub had been fired on. However, for reasons that remain undetermined, a general alert was never issued.

    An hour later, Japanese planes bombed the base, leaving 2,390 people dead, 1,178 wounded, and 21 ships heavily damaged

    A subsequent investigation blamed the poor communication on inexperienced officers and poor planning between the army and naval units on the base.

    “We have shades here of what happened on 9/11,” said John Wiltshire, a Halifax-born geologist who directs the undersea lab in Hawaii. “There was a lot of forewarning, but nobody did anything about it.”

    Foster Griezic, a history professor at Carleton University, said the U.S. government probably would have preferred if the Japanese sub had remained hidden.

    Not only does it symbolize the deadly communications gap that occurred at the base, he said, but it distorts the common notion that the United States joined the Second World War as a matter of self-defence.

    After all, he said, they fired first.

    “To me,” he said, “the real significance is that the Americans are typically warmongers.”

    The sub is expected to be raised to the surface for examination, but the U.S. and Japanese governments are still discussing whether it will remain in the vicinity.


    sorry for the long post - thought it an interesting article given the flack the japs have got from pearl harbor.



  • Actually, you’re story isn’t very new. Historians have already known of the existence of this sub quite some time now (I can dig up an article in my WWII periodical if you like).

    The USS Ward sent two messages to its superiors, warning that an enemy sub had been fired on. However, for reasons that remain undetermined, a general alert was never issued.

    This is true. The Ward did report to HQ. However, it was determined that the sub did not pose a significant threat to the harbor and that any invasion probably would not have come from air (even the Japanese believed that much of the damage would be done by these mini-subs instead of planes).

    “To me,” he said, “the real significance is that the Americans are typically warmongers.”

    This claim is totally ridiculous given the wartime nature of the time, and the charting into US waters.



  • I’ve actually known about this also. When I started my “Pearl Harbor Conspiracy” thread I forgot all about it. This also fueled the fire that Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen. Similarly, a radar operator reported the first wave on his screen. It was dimissed as friendly planes from the mainland!



  • Roosevelt did know the attack was coming, that’s why he sent an alert to the Philippines and Pearl Harbor but because of bad weather, the message to Pearl Harbor didn’t come in time.



  • Similarly, a radar operator reported the first wave on his screen. It was dimissed as friendly planes from the mainland!

    Well this was more of a coincidence since a flight of B-17s(?) were scheduled to appear at approximately the same time as the Zeros.



  • Those Japanese subs were sunk in the mouth of pearl harbour very close to the day of the attack. Japan would have attack whether or not those subs were sunk.

    If the Americans ran into the Jap carrier group, I’m sure they would have attacked it too.

    Japan intentions in either case would have been interpreted as hostile and aggressive.
    The U.S. would have just provocation to attack.

    To call the Americans warmongers and the aggressor in the Pacific is a wild and a completey inaccurate overstatement.



  • @Mr:

    Those Japanese subs were sunk in the mouth of pearl harbour very close to the day of the attack. Japan would have attack whether or not those subs were sunk.

    If the Americans ran into the Jap carrier group, I’m sure they would have attacked it too.

    Japan intentions in either case would have been interpreted as hostile and aggressive.
    The U.S. would have just provocation to attack.

    To call the Americans warmongers and the aggressor in the Pacific is a wild and a completey inaccurate overstatement.

    i agree that it’s an inappropriate statement. particularly given the lengths to which the Americans avoided going to war.



  • @cystic:

    @Mr:

    The U.S. would have just provocation to attack.

    To call the Americans warmongers and the aggressor in the Pacific is a wild and a completey inaccurate overstatement.

    i agree that it’s an inappropriate statement. particularly given the lengths to which the Americans avoided going to war.

    Still, they have been extremely provoking towards the Japanese. One could say, the US looked like wanting to be attacked: Looking for the war, but not for being the aggressor.

    What’s your stand on this?



  • well roosevelt did want to go to war and was doing every thing in his power to get involved i beleive. i could be wrong



  • @DasEwokSS:

    well roosevelt did want to go to war and was doing every thing in his power to get involved i beleive. i could be wrong

    Rossevelt wanted to stop the Nazis.
    One front at a time.
    He was trying to keep the peace with a ever expanding Japanese Empire.
    Both nations new a war was coming years before.
    America did not want to fight Germany and Japan at the same time, It was not their first choice.

    Japan was the nation with territorial gain as an agenda, not the Americans.
    The U.S. was NOT the aggressors or provokers in the Pacific.



  • Still, they have been extremely provoking towards the Japanese. One could say, the US looked like wanting to be attacked: Looking for the war, but not for being the aggressor.

    What’s your stand on this?

    How so? I think embargos on Japan were at least justifiable - considering the fact that the Imperial Japanese war machine was massacring fellow Asians.



  • An unidentified submarine in US territorial waters! I’d say the USS Ward had good provocation to attack. Wasn’t this sub actually a mini-sub, brought along with 4 others to sneak into Pearl Harbor. If a mini-sub, it was brought by a bigger ship for NEFARIOUS purposes. 🙂

    I read that the carriers based at Pearl left a day or two before 12-7-1941! I’d say we got coinkydink. Put that with Midway(7 flights with no success then BOOM!, if I memember korrectly) LUCK and what a history. I think SOMEBODY was lookin’ out fer US. 😉

    "Humankind has not woven the web of life.
    We are but one thread within it.
    Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.
    All things are bound together.
    All things connect.

    • Chief Seattle


  • Yes, the sub was a mini.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

I Will Never Grow Up Games

46
Online

13.4k
Users

33.8k
Topics

1.3m
Posts