Here we go again

One video of a rocket going into a window to kill someone and suddenly, America has to have 1,000% efficiency.  God forbid we accidentally drop a waffle too far to the left of the plate!

You never see this sh*t when some warlord goes into a village and machine guns dozens of women and children.  I’d wager you never see it when a Canadian makes a mistake either, or a Limey or a Frog or a Kraut….But as soon as an American makes a mistake, he has to be dishonorably discharged, stripped of all his rank, thrown in jail for life, his kids have to serve life sentences, all his family assets taken away and his wife stripped of citizenship.

Welcome to what the world views as “fair.”  If it hurts America it’s “fair” if it puts America on an even playing field with other nations it’s “unfair.”

@M36:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080210/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_soldier_trial

The Army is back at it’s old ways of punishing it’s men for doing their job. Sgt. Vella accidentally killed a civilian, and so the Army gives him up to the wolves. This kind of betrayal is not isolated to the Army either, it is the doctrine of the entire United States military.

Wait a second, M36.  You think the guy that has already been court-martialed for premeditated murder, that also planted evidence on his most recent kill, and made false statements is innocent?

Somehow I think his sentence is appropriate, especially when Sgt. Vela confessed the crime himself.

@Cmdr:

One video of a rocket going into a window to kill someone and suddenly, America has to have 1,000% efficiency.  God forbid we accidentally drop a waffle too far to the left of the plate!

So no one should strive for perfection?  If I have a business of 100 employees, and 99 of them do their job well, I shouldn’t replace the one that isn’t cut out for their job?

You never see this sh*t when some warlord goes into a village and machine guns dozens of women and children.  I’d wager you never see it when a Canadian makes a mistake either, or a Limey or a Frog or a Kraut….But as soon as an American makes a mistake, he has to be dishonorably discharged, stripped of all his rank, thrown in jail for life, his kids have to serve life sentences, all his family assets taken away and his wife stripped of citizenship.

Oh, come on.  You do hear about massacres.  But in the US, we generally don’t hear about other country’s single murders, unless it’s something particularly egregious.  That would be way too depressing and overwhelming to hear about killing all the time - we’ve got enough of our own.  Is that what YOU want to see everytime you turn on the news?

Welcome to what the world views as “fair.”  If it hurts America it’s “fair” if it puts America on an even playing field with other nations it’s “unfair.”

WTF are you talking about?  This guy committed a crime and is rightfully going to jail for it.  What has that got to do with the US and other countries???

we do have a tendancy to throw our own troops under the bus. guilty or innocount we are hurting our own more with accuasations then we should be. i’m not condoning murder, but our troops are in combat and against an enamy that will strap bombs on there women and children to kill us and each other. the rules of engagment are horible over there and it adds to the stress. accidents happen, but the biggest accident is letting congress and the media play commander in chief.

Jermo,

I know you are just playing devil’s advocate, you have to be.  No one would be silly enough to try and twist my words to mean that we should not strive for perfection.  You and I both know I the message I was conveying was that we strive for perfection, but the world expects us to be absolutely perfect and when one of our guys makes a mistake (not necessarily this guy) they crucify us unless we go absolutely insane with unfair sentencing for the unfortunate sap who made an honest mistake in the fog of war.

Guess what.  Friendly fire happens.  It happens so often, WE HAVE A TERM FOR IT.  It is not only something that happens to Americans or by Americans, other nations have it happen too.

Guess what.  Equipment malfunctions.  It happens to us and other nations.

Guess what.  Soldiers make mistakes and people are hurt or die because of them.  It happens in America and in other armies.

What’s the difference?  When it’s an American it becomes international news and we are all portrayed as evil villains bent on destroying lives of the innocents with mal-intent.  But when it happens to someone else, it’s downplayed as an honest mistake and isn’t it horrible that accidents happen.

And yes, I blame the video footage of that bomb/rocket from Desert Storm that was played all the time.  You know, where you could follow the footage all the way down into the specific window targeted and then watch the building explode.  It was amazing, and is amazing that we CAN do that.  But now we are held to a ridiculously high standard.  The world expects us to be able to shoot a flee off the collar of a poodle at 25 miles with a 16 inch shell without hurting the poodle or anyone else around it.

@Pervavita:

we do have a tendancy to throw our own troops under the bus. guilty or innocount we are hurting our own more with accuasations then we should be. i’m not condoning murder, but our troops are in combat and against an enamy that will strap bombs on there women and children to kill us and each other. the rules of engagment are horible over there and it adds to the stress. accidents happen, but the biggest accident is letting congress and the media play commander in chief.

Well, I think one reason, probably the main one, is that this is such an aberration of many soldiers.  This is unique in that most troops have no problems at all.  So this is an exception, not a rule, which is why it is reported.

@Cmdr:

I know you are just playing devil’s advocate, you have to be.  No one would be silly enough to try and twist my words to mean that we should not strive for perfection.  You and I both know I the message I was conveying was that we strive for perfection, but the world expects us to be absolutely perfect and when one of our guys makes a mistake (not necessarily this guy) they crucify us unless we go absolutely insane with unfair sentencing for the unfortunate sap who made an honest mistake in the fog of war.

I’m not playing devil’s advocate; I’m responding to inane comments that don’t even acknowledge what actually happened.  No one has damned the military for what this guy did.  He was charged, tried, and sentenced.  End of story.

Guess what.  Friendly fire happens.  It happens so often, WE HAVE A TERM FOR IT.  It is not only something that happens to Americans or by Americans, other nations have it happen too.

I’ve always found that term really dumbfounding, but either way, why do you bring it up?

Guess what.  Equipment malfunctions.  It happens to us and other nations.

Yeah, and?

Guess what.  Soldiers make mistakes and people are hurt or die because of them.  It happens in America and in other armies.

I still don’t see your point.  But this guy went beyond making a mistake.  He got what he deserved…

What’s the difference?  When it’s an American it becomes international news and we are all portrayed as evil villains bent on destroying lives of the innocents with mal-intent.  But when it happens to someone else, it’s downplayed as an honest mistake and isn’t it horrible that accidents happen.

What about this is international news?  You are just making a strawman where there isn’t an issue.  Why waste your time?

And yes, I blame the video footage of that bomb/rocket from Desert Storm that was played all the time.  You know, where you could follow the footage all the way down into the specific window targeted and then watch the building explode.  It was amazing, and is amazing that we CAN do that.  But now we are held to a ridiculously high standard.  The world expects us to be able to shoot a flee off the collar of a poodle at 25 miles with a 16 inch shell without hurting the poodle or anyone else around it.

Of course we’d like to see minimal civilian casualties (another dumbfounding phrase applies here - “collateral damage”) and property damage, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what M36 linked to.

M36, we have the best military in the world. part of having that is sometimes coming down harshly on our soldiers when they screw up.

It would be different if the guy hadnt covered up what he did. those snipers were strung out and its hard to blame the guy for overreacting. but be a man and admit it. don’t plant a gun on the guy, lie to invesitgators, and pretend he was an insurgent.

Let me ask you: youve gone with 3 hours sleep a day for 3 days. you kill a civilian who gets to close. Maybe you should have handled things differently. But would you personally, as a Marine, try to cover it up and lie about it? doesn’t that go against the honor code you guys pride yoursevles on?

You’re looking at a very small microcosm to prove your point, Jermo.  I’m looking at the WHOLE picture.  That’s why your comments seem so insanely stupid.  You only want to talk about one case, I want to talk about how the world treats American military men and women in general.  You accidentally cause someone to get a hangnail and the world wants to string you up by your entrails and even then won’t be satisfied.

Maybe this guy did wrong.  Dunno.  Don’t really care.  It’s not relevant.  He’s one minor little case on which my argument will not be hung from.  Not when there’s literally tens of thousands of other cases where one American military member made a mistake and the world wants to demonize all American military members (and by world, I include some domestic individuals too.)

@Jermofoot:

@Pervavita:

we do have a tendancy to throw our own troops under the bus. guilty or innocount we are hurting our own more with accuasations then we should be. i’m not condoning murder, but our troops are in combat and against an enamy that will strap bombs on there women and children to kill us and each other. the rules of engagment are horible over there and it adds to the stress. accidents happen, but the biggest accident is letting congress and the media play commander in chief.

Well, I think one reason, probably the main one, is that this is such an aberration of many soldiers.  This is unique in that most troops have no problems at all.  So this is an exception, not a rule, which is why it is reported.

the problem is that we are throwing the accusations around before the trial. it’s not “accused of murder” it is “they are murderers”, this isn’t just the media pulling this, it’s civilians and our own elected officals. i don’t mind making an example of a guy when he did wrong, but when there is no wrong then don’t hang them out.

Well, unless I read the story incorrectly, it wasn’t a “heat of the moment” incident. The guy was with his son when they stumbled on their position. They then detained both the man and his son. They then let the son go. And THEN, a few minutes later, Vela was ordered to murder the man, an unarmed detained civilian.

Just the fact that they planted a weapon on a dead man and then attempted to cover up their actions shows that everyone involved knew that they had commited multiple crimes. Being sleep deprived is just an excuse, and a poor one at that, because they certainly weren’t sleep deprived when they lied about what happened.

What baffles me is how anyone can think that this was just an honest misunderstanding. How many crimes did those guys have to commit before you realize that they disgraced both the uniforms they wore and the country they took an oath to serve, WITH HONOR. Even if the killing was justified, which it wasn’t, honorable servicemen don’t plant evidence and attempt to cover up their deeds.

And for the record, the guy only got 10 years. 10 YEARS! If this situation happened here in America where a guy and his son stumble on armed people hiding somewhere and they hold the guy, send his son away, kill the guy, plant a gun on him, and then lie to the police about it, you guys would be screaming for the death penalty.

If you want to take your service to this country and wear it on your sleeve as a badge of pride, that’s perfectly fine. I’ll be the first one to admit that I’m jealous. And if you want to stick together, whether right or wrong, like some glorified high-school clique, that’s fine, too. That, I’m not really jealous about. I don’t really care. But, when you steadfastly defend a convicted murderer simply because he is part of your group, then you are being about as un-American as the enemy you boast that you are protecting us from. And that’s pretty freakin sad. Until the day I die, I’ll never be jealous of that.

@Cmdr:

You’re looking at a very small microcosm to prove your point, Jermo.  I’m looking at the WHOLE picture.  That’s why your comments seem so insanely stupid.  You only want to talk about one case, I want to talk about how the world treats American military men and women in general.  You accidentally cause someone to get a hangnail and the world wants to string you up by your entrails and even then won’t be satisfied.

We are talking about the soldier M36 posted.  Start a new thread with your nonsense.

Maybe this guy did wrong.  Dunno.  Don’t really care.  It’s not relevant.  He’s one minor little case on which my argument will not be hung from.  Not when there’s literally tens of thousands of other cases where one American military member made a mistake and the world wants to demonize all American military members (and by world, I include some domestic individuals too.)

Where?  Again you are just spouting crap to make you look like some kind of victim.  It isn’t so.

@M36:

Unit, Corp, God, Country. I would imagine the Army follows a similar doctrine.

The point is that you cannot be an effective fighting force if you can’t trust the guys watching your back. My loyalty is first to my comrades who will be blowing to hell anyone who tries to do me harm, not to some absurd notion of right and wrong laid down by a broken society which has already legalized murder and called it choice. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

And if this situation had happened in America, things would be different because the man probably would not be going back home to tell the local terrorist mullah where our location was.

How was an innocent, unarmed civilian doing anyone harm?  Regardless, being in the military doesn’t give you a carte blanche to do as you wish with anyone.  You have a great responsibility with your power.  This guy didn’t understand that.

If this guy would kill unarmed civilians (multiple times), and even go so far as to cover it up, my guess is you couldn’t trust him.  Would he ditch you in a fire fight?  Would he leave you to die to save his own ass?

Furthermore, isn’t war “legalized” murder?

i think from my uderstanding of M36’s first post and post after words that it was not limmited to the one incident.

Furthermore, isn’t war “legalized” murder?

if thats true, then Lincoln=Bin Loden; Hitler=Churchhill; Ted Bundy=Patton.
they are two diffrent situations and you can’t compair them in such a simple term.

The guy killed a undefended man without provocation. The army punished the guy. I think it’s OK. It should work so.

If a soldier could “accidentally” kill a civilian and the army would cover him or her, next civilian killed could be you. Or your family.

About Americans and such… well UK soldiers also got punished for something similar a time ago. And if some Spanish soldier would make something similar, I’d also glad if the justice punish him/her (and would be very frightened if they don’t punish it, I don’t want come back to the dictatorship). Not an “all against America” issue, only a justice issue.

When you joined the military, you took an oath to defend the Constitution. And that means the whole Constitution, not just the parts you deem worthy of defending. I don’t care whether or not you think some parts of it are broken. You don’t have the right to make the decision to obey only the parts you like. Nobody does. Nobody is above the Constitution. Not Sgt. Vela, not you.

When you volunteer to join the American Armed Forces, you represent America. And that means you have a duty to act like an American. That means here, in another country, or on another freakin planet. If it’s wrong here, it’s wrong there.

In your title of United States Marine, there is a reason that United States comes before the word marine. They are doing something wrong if they are training people to think that anything or anyone is above their country and it’s laws. You serve your country, not your buddies.

@M36:

Unit, Corp, God, Country. I would imagine the Army follows a similar doctrine.

The point is that you cannot be an effective fighting force if you can’t trust the guys watching your back.

So, trusting the guy watching your back means helping him cover up a murder? You can’t trust anyone who murders an unarmed man. I think your concept of trust is a bit skewed.

@M36:

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

And if this situation had happened in America, things would be different because the man probably would not be going back home to tell the local terrorist mullah where our location was.

Bullsht. If they were so worried about local terrorists being led back to their hideout then why did they let the son go? Why didn’t they kill him, too? They knew what they did was wrong. Legally. Morally. Wrong. That’s why they planted the weapon on him. The ONE fcking thing that makes us better than the terrorists is that we can stand up and say that we don’t murder innocent people. If we can’t say that then we don’t belong there because we are no better than they are. And that’s a disgrace to this country and everything it stands for.

I know that situation is royally f*cked up. And I don’t want to see anyone die, especially another American. But if you get faced with the choice of dying for your country or murdering an innocent person then you need to choose dying for your country without a second thought because that’s why you are there. The innocent are what you are fighting to protect. That’s your job and it’s the price you pay for the respect you get from the American people and the reason you’re called heroes.

Sgt. Vela wasn’t a hero, he was an executioner. It made me sick to think that he had the balls to ask for mercy from the court and the man’s family when he had no mercy for the man he killed. He deserved a lot worse than he got.

An army that can kill undefended civilians without punishment cannot be effective. My constitution says all citizens are equal against the law (art. 14), I think American constitution also says so. I agree with U-505

Nations constatutions are ment to be directed to the nation and only the nation that it implies, other wise I as a US citizen would be subject to Russian or Chiness law.
i’m not personally justifing what this Sgt did, i don’t know the facts my self, non of us do. the media has a tendancy the scew the facts against the millitary. even if not true, i highly doupt all the facts of this trial were made public.
the problem is that we do have casses where innocount service men and women are convicted before trial even by the people and government that they are there to protect. when you have US seniters saying that men who have not been to trial yet are guilty, then you have a problem.

But what you are failing to realize is that we protect the US Constitution, not foreigners.  For all our oath means, there is NOTHING in there that says we cannot carpet bomb kittens and puppies for the fun of it.

Furthermore, military personnel acting in a military situation are NOT subject to the domestic laws of this nation, but solely to the UCMJ which has different standards. (For one, you do NOT have the right to not criminalize yourself, you MUST testify.  You also do not have the right to an attorney nor are you guaranteed a speedy trial, etc.)