Ok, so if I corrected all the mistakes I made in my first PBF game with you, we should see the second game created HERE!
First things first, hello everyone! I’m new to the board but have been playing the game since I was 12 (I’m 24 now).
The general consesus seems to be that the Allies have a vast advantage over the Axis and that even with special rules in play to help, the Axis still have little chance to win if the all three Allies concentrate their efforts on Germany . I just don’t see it. If Germany can hold on against Russia and keep the seas relatively clear until Japan makes its way into Russia the Axis can consistently be successful.
Let me preface by saying we always play Russia restricted (without that rule I agree that the Allies are unstoppable).
I don’t want to go on a diatribe here so I’ll be brief with most of the first round turns; all of the Allies moves are done with the understanding of a concentrated attack on Germany .
Russia - 8 infantry (place on Karelia), reinforce Karelia with units from Russia, move your ships to the UK waters, converge the eastern troops into one spot to try and hold off Japan as long as possible.
Germany - 10 infantry (on Germany) save 2 ipc’s, use your ships and planes to take out all the allied ships in the area, basic Africa attacks, back up your tanks from Ukraine SSR to Eastern Europe so you don’t lose them to a Russian attack next turn, move as many infantry and tanks as possible into Eastern Europe.
UK - (assuming all UK ships were destroyed) Transport and carrier save 4 ipc’s, use planes to take out any remaining German ships, bombing raid germany if you feel like it, use remaining (if any) units in Africa to reclaim land, land fighters in Karelia (including the India fighter), place ships.
Japan - This is the big one. Complex and 3 infantry (complex in Manchuria), clear out US ships in Hawaii with 2 battleships, sub, carrier and fighter, attack Sinkiang with the infantry from Kwangtung, one infantry from Indo-China and a bunch of planes, land fighters in Manchuria, transport infantry from Japan and Phillipines to Manchuria.
USA - 3 transports 4 infantry, not much to do (transport in Eastern US should be gone), you can use the battleship, transport and a bomber to attack remaining Japanese fleet in Hawaii if you want (I’d only do this if Japan doesn’t have too much left), land the us fighters on the carrier in the UK waters, maybe push the China infantry towards Russia.
So after all of this the Russia isn’t anywhere close to realistically attacking, Germany can fend off more of the surrounding seaforce (in fact, if you landed your bomber in Western Europe you can attack those three transports the US bought). And even if attacking the ships costs you your airforce you’d still delay them another turn. You can replace fighters while still providing infantry for defense against a Russian attack. If Japan plays effectively they should be in control of most of the Russian territories and knocking on the door of the capital within 3 turns which completely diverts Russia’s attention.
So I ask, how is it that this game is THAT in favor of the allies? I welcome friendly debate.
*Side note Not to be presumptious, but most message boards have people whose sole purpose in life is to troll and leave inflammatory messages. I’m not interested in fighting over the internet. Please, friendly debate only.
It is the general consensus that the Axis be given an extra $22-$24 (withs some variation) to spend immediately (prior to the first dice rolled) for additional units in order to balance the game. This is w/o Russia Restricted.
You may want to search for topics on “bidding” in this forum for additional details.
Playing without Russia restricted I could see that being helpful in balancing the game. What I’m saying, however, is that if you play Russia restricted I find the game to be very even. I just don’t understand why so many seem to think the Allies will almost always win. (Maybe I’m just reading the wrong posts, but I feel that to be the general belief of most on the board).
Germany can try to take out all the ships, but you are likely going to lose some air on G1.
You are also going to run into trouble in Afr. If you send a sub to help take out the BB off Gib that means sub/trn Plus air to take out 1 sub, 2 trns, 1 bb in the UK sz. That also means 1 bb/trn vs. 1 sub to send reinforcements into Egy, but if the UK sub hits in Def (33%) that is bad news right off the bat. Then you still have the pesky trn off Ecan where you need air. Germany can get into real trouble if they try to do too much. Now if you are going sub vs. trn in Eus you’re really spreading your self thin and risk disaster and you’ll probably lose multiple ftrs somewhere along the way.
As for UK, they’ll counter Egy bringing in the bom if nec.
Germany should lose its med fleet on UK 2.
UK/US can still hit Afr in Rd 2 and Nor in Rd 3 and by Rd4-5 you are looking at all three Allies in Kar.
Now Russia can start pushing back on Japan while the UK/US take out Germany.
So Japan has about 5 rds to take and hold Novo and do so with enough force to then take Moscow. It shouldn’t happen with a tactical retreat in the East by Russia and the US in the first few rds.
The Allies shouldn’t engage Japan unitl they try to take Novo, unless Japan got hammered on dice or something.
The Allies can also land in Spain if they want to go the WE route.
Germany can hold against Russia but they can’t hold against UK, US, AND Russia and can’t keep the seas clear without massive losses in the air which means Russia can be extremely aggressive.
With Russia Restricted you might also see a 3 inf, 3 arm buy so that Russia can be an offensive player right off the bat.
Which still means 15 inf, 6 arm, 2 ftrs in Kar (if my memory serves me correctly) and requires all German Air to try and crack, but now UK can counter on UK 1.
It is just extremely difficult as the Axis without at least a little help (usually in Afr) in terms of some extra units.
I should also say that even if you are going after Germany first it is not uncommon to see a Russian/UK stack in Yak in rd 1 with the bomber and Indian ftr if they weren’t needed elsewhere. This can be problematic since it requires Japan to protect those trns in Japan sz, otherwise you can say goodbye to those trns. And this in turn may lessen the attack on Pearl, which may open the door for a US counter.
Don’t buy a complex on J1… go 2 trans and 3 inf or advance build of 3 trans.
Furthermore Darth says it all…
Thanks for the detailed response Darth. I’d like to review a few of the points you made.
The first attacks I’d make with Germany are as follows: Eus transport with the sub, Ecan trasport with your bomber, the Gibraltar battleship with the Seur battleship and transport, the UK sub near the Suez with a fighter, the ships in the UK waters with your sub, transport and remaining fighters (I believe there are 4, although you could send 3 and use one of the other fighters elsewhere). I tested this on the cd-rom version 10 times and the results were generally the same: Eus and Ecan transports were taken out with no problem, the Suez sub is usually done (if you play with the submerge rule sometimes it can get away, but no big deal), the battleship in Gibraltar is taken out at the expense of the Seur transport, and in the UK waters you should be able to take out the Russian sub and transport as well as the UK battleship and transport with only the loss of your ships. So after all of these attacks you should most likely have taken out all of the sea force in the area, including the Eus and Ecan transports, without having lost any of your airforce. With that being the case you have a great chance at holding off any major sea action from the US or UK long enough for Japan to be right at the Russian border.
Also, if Russia buys 3 arm 3 inf and has 15 inf, 6 arm and 2 fighters, Germany’s purchase of 10 infantry on its first turn and 12 inf on its second can easily hold off Russia for a while.
Bashir: I’m curious; why 2 trans 3 inf instead of a complex? Wouldn’t you be better suited to have tanks being produced in Asia by turn 2?
Yea, Germany CAN expect those kinds of results. However. That’s only round 1. And most Russian players I know will dump 8 Infantry in Karelia, not 3 infantry, 3 armor. That’s going to significantly change things.
Add to that a British purchase of a carrier and a transport (and an infantry, but that may just be me) with american fighters landing on it for defense and odds are, you won’t be attacking the NOR fleet again.
Assuming all attacks went well for Germany, the absolute worst case for UK is this:
You save 30 ipc and have ~56 to spend on UK 2. This allows you to drop a safe fleet with the US buying an AC trns on US 1.
UK will counter the Ger BB with ftrs/bom, the US can hit any other lingering subs. So it is UK 1 and Germany is all but eliminated from Afr. UK can still pull the Ind troops if they want to really make sure about Afr.
So on UK 3 the Allies have an unsinkable fleet with 2 AC (1 US, 1 UK) plus planes and 4 trns (1 US, 3 UK) to use. At this point you can immediately dump infantry into Kar from London if Russia is desperate. But Russia should be able to hold their own for 4-5 rds easy, so the UK and US can hit Nor on Rd 3, continue build up and add troops in rd 4 and then force Germany to defend WE, EE, and Ger.
By Rd 4 both the UK and US should be getting a combined 12 inf (UK + US) to Norway give or take.
I don’t think Germany can compete, they may be able to hold out for a long time but they certainly can’t advance so the Allies are free to shift any resources they need to Moscow from Kar to assist against Japan. Now it is just a numbers game and that favors the Allies.
That’s usually what I’d buy for UK on turn one too Jennifer (and I agree with the 8 infantry in Karelia too). But let’s say the UK seas now contain one transport, one carrier and two fighters. On Germany’s second turn I’m buying 8 infantry and one fighter (this is assuming I bought ten inf and saved 2 ipc’s on turn 1 and took over at least those two undefended territories in Africa whose names escape me), and then I’m attacking the sea force with all of the planes I have (also, there’s an outside chance you still have a battleship from the Gibraltar fight seeing as the only way to take that out is with the UK bomber, and even the sub that attacked the Eus trans if you’re playing with the submerge rules). But let’s even assume those ships aren’t there; 5 fighters and a bomber attack the UK seas. Let’s say Germany loses 4 fighters (it’s fair to say that Germany hits with at least two of the fighters and the bomber on the first attack, then we’ll assume the carrier and both fighters hit. Then the second turn we’ll give the remaining fighter for the UK another hit). Now that seaforce is gone, there are no more US fighters to put on a newly purchases UK carrier and Germany has its bomber and 2 fighters (including the one that was purchased). Non combat: Push your ten inf in Germany to Eeur (I think that’s the one next to Germany) along with your fighter. The territory is still strong enough to withstand any kind of Russian attack and now the UK seas are barren. It will take the UK and US at least two more turns to begin to make an impact in Germany. By then Japan is already controlling most of Asia.
If you think I’m oversimplifying Jennifer tell me, but I feel like that makes sense.
Darth: I’m very intrigued by your plan. I’d never considered saving all the UK’s IPC’s for turn two. I’ll have to put some more thought into a counter. I guess the first thing I’d say is that by that time Japan should be in control of most of Asia. I’ll have to go through the game and see if it’s possible for the Japanese airforce to make it’s way over to help hold off a large UK seaforce.
I think you are forgetting to add in the American fleet in NOR with the British fleet.
It’s 2 Transports, 2 Fighters, Carrier in NOR on Germany 2. You COULD still sink it, but man are you going to pay a high price. Say you have 4 fighters and a bomber on Germany 2 (that’s pretty good considering how you made your attacks, you might even have less. But let’s pretend you only lost one.)
That gives you barely a 40% chance to sink everything there, and a 50% chance of being reduced to only a bomber in the process.
That’s going to severely hamper your ability to keep up the attack and replacing Transports for England and America is pretty simple. If you want to be honest about it. 8 IPC vs 12 IPC and the Allies still have their fighters/bombers where as Germany does not.
If your playing with no Russia Restricted, then I go 3 tanks/3 infantry and build up for a smash on EE providing the German player has no more than 11 Infantry. If Germany cant leave at least 3 planes in EE on turn one. I would seriously consider the attack. The point is to weaken the aggressive German player from doing too many thing at once
For germany i always buy tranny for Medd and rest infantry. That protects my fleet ( i either take gibrater and egypt which saves it from UK bomber)
With japan i rather have floating ships than factories. I buy 3 tranny and 2 men. 16 IPC can carry 4 men, where 15 ipc can build 3 men in asian factories. Eventually this horde of infantry needs “iron in the glove” and i only build that factory in India so i can shuck tanks to africa or Russia quicker. But that would be after i am established in Asia.
He already said Russia Restricted though, IL
In Classic, IC’s are generally a much later purchase (a way to get INF to the front fast for a final push on Moscow) due to original IC’s being unlimited production.
Russia Restricted at least ameliorate the lop-sidedness of the game.
I think a suitable bidlevel would be 9-10 , given RR.
A bidlevel of 9-10 is not such a bad balance, I think.
But it was years since I played Classic, so I might be a bit off here.
I think RR pushes it down to 18 or so from 23.
By about UK3, the UK and USA will both have operational invasion fleets of of about 3-4 UK trns and 4 US trns.
US can then just march 8 inf to ECan for transport on US4, US5, and on and on.
After 2-3 rounds of UK and US inf reinforcement from Fin/Nor into Kar, Ger will not have enough income to produce a valid attack from EEur.
UK can also add 2-3 ftr in Kar for defence.
UK4 starts the Big Hurt by spending $3 and invading Spain. Then US reinforces w/ inf & fighters.
The combined fleet can now hit S.Eur.
A massive UK invasion can at least weaken W.Eur for the US5 follow-up.
Ger has too many places to defend at this time and would need to retreat, exposing Ukr and E.Eur to USSR invasion. Even worse, UK and USA can overwhelm the minimal defenses where Ger retreated from E.Eur. opening the Rus armor to attack S.Eur.
The point is, eventually, with $80+/round on ground and naval transport purchases, the Allies can exploit multiple attack vectors into greater Europe. ~$380+ spent by the Allies vs <$200 spent by Ger over 5 rounds. This automatically puts Ger on defense, and Ger has no mathematical way of minimizing the attack vectors short of taking Kar on Ger1, which is often a risky gamble.
yea Spain is the trick that make the allies have more options. They just hold Karelia and attack places like Spain, while the Germans can only hold out for so many turns. Japan does much better in this version IMO. And their attack is more focused and easy to implement. I dont see KJF working too well in this version. I have seem many attempts all fail ( i was Japan).
I wish people went back to this version more. It has not lost its charisma.Its still a great game.
Everyone has made good points so far on this topic. A couple questions for all who’ve responded:
Even if the US/UK is able to amass this large force by turn 4 or 5, Japan should be taking out Russia by then anyways right?
What is the Axis strategy then? If Germany is essentially doomed from the get go should they just take a shot at Karelia?
Would a plausible strategy be to have Germany continually build airforce and/or ships to keep the seas clear? As was said in an earlier posting of mine you can take out all the seaforce in the area without losing any planes (one fighter should be the worst that happens really). Turn 1 you could buy 2 fighters and 2 inf, and save 2 ipc’s. Now you should have 7 fighters and a bomber. Second turn you should have 38 (you definitely gain 2 in Africa, usually 4) and you could buy 2 more fighters, 4 inf and save 2. If you go with the plan of buying a carrier in the UK and placing the American fighters on it they will be taken out easily. If you go with the plan of waiting for the UK’s 2nd turn to buy and then stocking the sea with 2 carriers and 4 planes, Germany gets another turn to buy. So they go with 2 fighters and 4 inf again. Germany will be able to attack the UK and US ships with 9 fighters and a bomber; certainly enough to take them down. So let’s say with 2 trns, 2 carriers, 4 planes that the allies shoot down 6 fighters (that’s fair right)? We’ll even say 7. At the end of Germany’s turn they have 4 fighters (counting the two they purchased that turn) and a bomber and the UK and US have no ships. If you land the fighters in Eastern Europe and stack most of your troops there Russia will still not be able to advance towrads Germany and will have to deal with Japan coming in the back door. At this point the Axis are well in control of the game.
Germany is the Anvil and japan is the hammer.
Japan should be taking everything on the map 3-6 IPC a turn for like 3-4 turns.
J1 3 tranny , 2 inf
Take Hawaii by invasion ( 2 infantry) and bring everything except the bomber.
Bomber and fighter and 1 man go after the far Chinese territory
the rest including 2 planes and men goto the other Chinese territory
NCM planes to Manchuria and land some island guys in FIC. Pick up island guys as much as possible
J2 you build equal men and tranny in order to max out the capacity of transports. Calculate possible men from islands. dont waste money on tranny that wont have a job to do or buy extra men that you don’t need when they can be brought from islands
On j2 Hawaii fleet attacks Australia and on turn 3 it goes to India. On j2 you may leave behind the Australia tranny to take Zealand.
A factory should be bought by turn 3-4 depending on Russia. Place it in India ( first choice) or FIC (second choice)
Bring the AA gun over to protect from bombers.
Also forgot you need to leave one tranny on j1 in the japan zone because the 3 tranny build will protect it against the US sub that may retreat from combat. Ill take 4 ones against 1 2 anyday. That tranny brings over 2 men to protect manchuria (along with your planes)
This is all from memory from last century but it never failed me.
You can’t possibly attack Rus with Japan in 4 rounds… If you have optimal results with the axis it still takes you 3 turns to get to novo! You can’t bring enough inf to think of taking Rus on round 4…
For your plan to buy airforce or ships with germany, its doomed… Russia walks over Germany with ease, because the UK will keep wiping out German ships, then the US keeps dropping inf in Eur… => Game over!
For your other question about going 2 trans 3 inf as initial buy for Jap:
You need cannon fodder and inf provide just that. You can’t take Russia with just tanks… Give a mathematical example here. 2 tanks take out one inf, 3 inf take out one tank on def => Russia spends 9, Japan 10. So you gonna lose a lot of value with just buying tanks.
I think a bid of 12-15 was enough for RR. Because you don’t lose ukr and Manch on round one, so 12-15 is sufficient…
My optimal Ger 1 move with RR (no bid) would be:
Lab sz: tran vs fig (WEu)
UK sz: 2 trans, bb and a sub vs 4 fig and a sub
Gib sz: BB vs 1 sub and bomb
Jor sz: sub vs tran and bb
Egypte: 1 inf and 1 arm vs 3 inf and 1 arm.
Then pray you only lose 1 fig, its the best you can hope for…