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Japan first strategies



  • Since this topic is not my specialty, I’d like to get a thread going to get a good, consistantly working Japan-First Strategy.

    Here is my input. Usually, when Japan is the allie’s focus, the Russians and the African forces of Britain and America are quickly overrun. So, by the time Japan is seriously threatened by the Us and Britain, the Germans have taken russia and are in a position to threaten britain. With Africa taken, Britain could be in trouble as America does not have a large presense in the Atlantic and Germany makes quite a bit more income than the English.

    Now, this points to a not so true Japaneese first strategy in my opinion. So Russia and Africa are not totally overrun, Britain must help support Russia and Africa. But, with minimal support, I believe Britain can stall the Germans long enough for America to take care of Japan.

    How do you do this? That I ask all of you. I think it requires Britain to focus all of it’s money on the Atlantic front, so no Indian factory. I also think it may require Britain to build 2 bombers on turn 1 to suicide on the German transports and do future industrial bombing if it lives. Now, if Britain can keep Africa, then the Russians (Holding Ukraine and Finland of course) would make more money than the germans. This would allow them time to pressure the germans.

    Problems? Well the void on what the Us will do has yet to be filled. Japan is 2 turns away from western Us, and without an India factory Japan may very well out economy the US. Combined with the starting navy and the defensive advantage, the US may be in for a very hard fight.

    Thoughts? Comments?



  • Well, we could have them (The US) build an IC in Sinkiang (Or China, I can’t remember which is the farther one from Japan), then move most of the Russian and British troops in the area in there. And, they could build a fleet to attack with, using the factory as a distraction that could become a threat if ignored. Or, we could have them do more in the atlantic, and have the India factory instead, still using the US fleet…



  • Just tested a Japan first strategy. Russia on full defense after offensive capabilities in Europe were exhausted. Britian fortifies Africa and moves into Asia. USA amphibious assaults into Asia. Japan buys IC in French Indo-china in turn 1 and transports the rest after moving entire fleet to Japan (no Hawaii attack).
    RESULTS -
    Germany overpowers Russia with a heavy infantry build up. No Allied fleet in the Atlantic to concern about. Limited first turns action in Africa. Once Russia fell, armor to Africa and Asia.
    Japan attacked US fleet in Soviet Far East in turn 3 causing US delays. Although Japan almost lost to the US/British forces in Asia, it gave Germany the time it needed to take Russia and then bail them out.
    The Allies needed to keep Germany out of the Caucasus long enough for the USA/UK forces to eliminate Japan from Asia. This allowed Germany to cut off the British from Africa right before Russia fell and the Allies lost their chance to gain the advantage. The fairly good US effort was then cut off and basically the same went for the British.
    I believe the early IC in south-east Asia made a difference preventing Allied IC’s from being built in Asia and then delaying the British from Africa. Japan (almost losing!) bought the Germans time for victory.
    However, if the Allied time table was only 2 or 3 turns ahead of the Axis, the game may have ended differently…


  • 2019 Moderator

    I think you have beter cahances if you leave Africa for the americans and have the british concetrate on India. On the first turn use the Russian fighters to help defend the future IC. They also send two Inf to Sinkiang to help Defend the US IC there. Sinkiang and India suport each other and as soon as they can manage they send troops to Russia. The US can land troops in Africa by the boat load if they use Eastern Canada. These troops can A)march through the middle east to the Caucasus or B)From Algeria land in any German territory.



  • exactlly Dezrtfish!! The US has the time and transports for Africa…UK has a better opportunity for an IC in India than the US in Sinkiang. The US would be foolish to go into the Pacific. The US with UK and Russia need to work strongly together, planning every assault together against the Germans. The Allies just need to stall the Japs long enough in Asia to start beating on the Germans…which is easy enough with an IC in india, Russian troops up north and either having the US troops in india or holding out in Sinkiang. With the US tramping thru Africa, their not far from Asia.

    For Japan…I STRONGLY disagree with not attacking the US in Hawaii. Japan must wipe the US navy out as to focus on the mainland, even if it means a possible counter-attack by the US…which I doubt, but if they want too thats fine by the Japs also. If they don’t attack Hawaii then they have to watch their backs and take away from the mainland which in turn means Germany is almost dead with no Japs in sight to help out. I stole this transport idea from Yanny…Japan should buy one or two transports and men first turn and fortify mainland positions…then turn two start transporting more men to the mainland and by turn three buy an IC for Kwangtung or wherever for building nothing but tanks, maybe fighters. If the US is plannig a Far East landing or even an assualt on Japan or its islands…Japan will have enough time to see it coming and setup for it…usually two turns. With that said a bomber or two help to pick any transports outta the water. The game is setup where the Axis must attack first and hard…eliminating as much as possible first turn to be able for a chance to progress. Giving the US fleet a chance to live another day will only mean defeat for the Germans in the Atlantic or Japan in the Pacific…DO NOT LET THEM BREATH!



  • Ok, I am just experimenting with this idea, but think of this.

    US and UK both build IC in asia, in india and sinkang. US is in charge of securing Africa, UK is in charge of helping the US with asia, and a new role that I will explain now.

    Now, the reason germany can overwhelm Russia is it’s higher economy. If Russia can equal or even be higher than germany’s economy, it can win. How to do this? Britain can help. If Britain can constantly strat bomb germany, while America keeps Germany out of Africa, Germany can be defeated by Russia alone, no landings needed. This leaves the Us and Britain to kill Japan.

    It needs some work, but I like the base idea.



  • Sounds Good! I like the joint effort idea of 2 IC in asia for the US and UK. That would definatly be effective. And the US can take Africa no problem…with as you say Yanny, leaving Russia to slowly eat away at Germany with a lttle boost from the UK now and again. Thumbs up…the operation is a Go!



  • I think that the Russians should still keep their focus on Germany in any Japan first stratagy. Ruusia starts the game with more infantry than Germany and this is what keeps them in the game especially if they can take out the stockpiled infantry on the European front.
    Britian must keep the Japanese from expanding on the mainland; Russia could probably also afford to send a couple of infanry east each turn to hold them off. But it’s up to The US to actaully go on the offensive. By taking the islands the US can cripple Japans economy, and any loses the Americans take can be replaced fairly easily, unlike Japan which can’t afford to rebuild their navy in a very timely manner.



  • Although I’m not a huge fan of the US going into the Pacific as I think it takes from a more valuable assualt against Germany, taking the Islands might be a good option….time consuming…but something to think about.



  • It’s REAL tempting not strike back at Japan if they hit Hawaii in turn 1. The USA (in turn 1) basically has got to determine how serious the Japanese player is in taking Asia. If the US can sucker the Japanese player into putting resources into the Pacific, I say good for Russian defense…



  • Japan first strategy might work if:
    Russia focuses on Germany and gets a better production then the latter.
    Britain captures Africa early in the game.

    You will need to prevent Germany from expanding early in the game, if you can conquer Africa with Britain and Karelia and Ukraine with the SU then the SU can force Germany into a stalemate in Europe, which means britain and US can focus on Japan.

    Now heres my suggestion:
    Turn 1: Russia: Defend Karelia and Yakut.
    Britain: Build an IC in South Africa, send 1 infantry from SA into Tansania (?) as well as 2 infantry and a fighter from India.
    US: Build an IC in Sinkiang if no chance of Japanese attack there and subs on the west coast. Use the battleship, transport, 2 fighters and a bomber to attack Japanese forces near Hawaii.
    Turn 2: Russia: Capture Ukraine or Scandinavia. Defend Karelia and Yakut.
    Britain: Build AC, Capture Egypt if possible or wait for the 2 tanks to be build in SA and attack next turn, if Egypt falls build IC there.
    US: Build transports at west coast, send fighters to british AC, bomber to Alaska.
    Next turns:
    Russia: Buy infantry and defend Karelia and capture German territories if possible.
    Britain: Capture Africa and move into Asia when succeeded.
    US: Destroy Japanese fleet and send forces into Far East.

    I havent really tested this yet, but it might succeed if Russia is able to get about 30 IPC’s (Germany will have 25 IPC’s when Africa has fallen).

    Edit: Note: US can also choose to attack Germany instead, no check on japs then though.

    [ This Message was edited by: greensleeves on 2001-12-20 12:34 ]


  • 2019 Moderator

    Funny you should post this strat. I am playing a game right now (via E-mail) where the UK abandoned India to go into Africa. At the end of turn 2 Japan’s IPC level is 41 and I have 2 territories bordering Russia. I took out India, Sinkiang, China and Soviet Far East on the first turn. This was only possible because India was abandoned on the first round. With a strong UK in Africa Germany abandoned Africa and squared off against Russia. Feeding the Eastern Front with Inf. and waiting for the Japs to cripple Russia enough to begin an all-out offensive.



  • I abandon India first round all the time. India can easily be retaken. If you Abandon India, move everything to Africa, and Suicide into the German Med. Sea transports. Do this and hopefully win africa.



  • yeah your probably right, i tried using this strat today and got lucky my opponent was a weak one. He managed to ruin Germany within 1 turn and gave me africa for free, but anyway Japan was still a pain in the back. I somehow did horribly bad with america and couldnt really make a difference, the complete failure of germany enabled russia to defend itself with ease.



  • this abandoning India could even pose good for the allies with the play of deception…after leaving for africa for a few rounds, it may be possible to catch the Japs off-guard and re-enter asia and liberate India and maybe more…maybe even take control of Japans IC (if it exists).



  • All Im going to say is with all theese creative ideas for Japan I wouldn’t want to take on yanny when he’s Japan



  • The UK holding India allows the British in Africa the time (say 2 or 3 turns) to get it together and take Africa from Germany and start marching into south-east Asia. If the Japanese are delayed in their expansion into the middle-east even 2 turns, this really helps out Britian…



  • but how to take africa* without support of india against a good german player offcourse?

    [ This Message was edited by: greensleeves on 2001-12-29 11:02 ]



  • I do not consider abandoning the most important colony in his majesty’s empire to be an option. India is the single most important territory in asia and its defense is hugely important in stalling the japanese offensive.



  • The UK airforce can take out the German Med fleet in turn 2 as long as Britian holds Syria-Iraq. The remaining Russian and UK fleets co-ordinate to amphibious assault North Africa. A South African IC is last. This is the quickest way to take back Africa and march into Asia. 1 or 2 US landings in Africa can help, also. India will be defended as long as possible. The lose is eventual but taking Africa back and moving forces into Asia quickly is the best way to take back South-East Asia…



  • I find that if Germany places it’s fleet in the sea zone right below italy, and takes Syria and Egypt, they can maintain their transports for a long period of time. It helps if the Japaneese bring their fleet over after Turn 1 (Via the Atlantic). It can get it’s fleet there in 4(?) turns I believe.



  • HI,
    I’m surfing the web for the first time adn find axisandallies.org!

    Looking @ the subjects, i found this one. looks like yuo takled about it for 2 weeks adn then stopped. did the one below work for JApan first? if not, is htere one that did?

    @dezrtfish:

    I think you have beter cahances if you leave Africa for the americans and have the british concetrate on India. On the first turn use the Russian fighters to help defend the future IC. They also send two Inf to Sinkiang to help Defend the US IC there. Sinkiang and India suport each other and as soon as they can manage they send troops to Russia. The US can land troops in Africa by the boat load if they use Eastern Canada. These troops can A)march through the middle east to the Caucasus or B)From Algeria land in any German territory.

    THANKS



  • Well… since this topic has been revived, here are my thoughts on the Grand Strategy of this idea.

    First of all let me state that my official position is that this thread is a Big Fat Waste of Time! 🙂

    I don’t think you can do it against a good Axis player. But as a logical exercise it would be fun to work on the problem. This will be a rambling, ‘think out loud’ process covering the basics from the Allies perspective, and will partially be no-brainers for the experienced players. I won’t get into any specific tactics or whether or not it can even be done (I doubt it can), just try to summarize what has to happen so that tactics can be developed.

    With a Germany First strategy the question has always been, “Can Japan take Russia before the Allies take Germany?”

    Under a Japan First strategy this question changes to “Can the USA take Japan before Germany takes Russia?” This basically implies that the Allies will have to be defensive in Western Europe, holding out against Germany as long as possible, while at the same time push on Japan as quickly as possible.

    Can the USA even take Japan by itself? Probably not. In most games Japan will have an income equal to or higher than the USA by turn 3 and there is little the USA can do about it.

    So the USA needs help. Before we can answer “Who?”, we need to decide “Where and how?” and factor in dealing with Germany.

    The USA needs an ally to help reduce Japan’s income, which means either on the mainland or the islands, or both. I think the mainland is a much easier target than the islands for many reasons that I won’t get into, so let’s go with that.

    Goal#1: We need Russia and/or the UK to help the USA kick Japan off the mainland.

    Sounds like a simple, common sense statement so far… let’s look at Germany.

    Can Russia stop Germany by itself? No, of course not. Why? Not enough income. Can they increase their income in our new scenario? Technically yes, by taking the 3 countries from the Japanese mainland for +9 income. Is that feasible? Who knows - probably not. Is that enough? Yes, if Germany doesn’t have Africa, no if they do have Africa. Can Russia stop Germany from taking Africa? No way. So in order to hold off Germany by itself, Russia has to divert enough troops away from the Eastern Front with Germany to take all 3 Japanese mainland countries and needs the UK to hold Africa - all of this against a Germany that has no pressure on the Eastern Front and no worries from the USA. I think I am definitely barking up the wrong tree here, so let’s stick with the idea that Russia has to get direct help from the UK against Germany. Where? That’s an easy one since there is only one answer - Karelia.

    Goal#2: We need the UK’s direct support in holding Karelia.

    Another easy, common sense goal. Not much progress in and of itself, but if we combine the two goals we suddenly hit on the real meat of the problem and the first big question:

    Big Question: How can the UK and Russia hold Karelia against Germany, while at the same time one or both of them help the USA kick Japan off the mainland?

    Can the UK and USSR even hold of Germany in Karelia without any help from the USA? Africa is the the key - yes if the UK holds Africa, no if Germany takes Africa. So now we have to revise our Big Question:

    Revised Big Question: How can the UK and Russia hold Karelia against Germany, prevent Germany from taking Africa, and at the same time one or both of them help the USA kick Japan off the mainland?

    Can Russia even help out in Africa? A little, by pushing troops through Persia, but not really - looks like the bulk of the job is up to the UK. Can the UK help defend Karelia and send troops to Africa? Probably. Can they help defend Karelia, send troops to Africa, and help the US kick Japan off the mainland? Probably not. So it also looks like the bulk of that job falls to Russia, so we at least need Russia’s help in kicking Japan off the mainland. Now we have a basic set of goals for everyone.

    I think I’ll wrap up with some major and minor goals for each of the three Allied countries:

    Russia Major Goals - Defend Karelia, help the USA kick Japan off the mainland.
    Russia Minor Goal - Help the UK defend Africa.

    UK Major Goals - Defend Karelia, keep Germany out of Africa.
    UK Minor Goal - Help the USA kick Japan off the mainland.

    USA Major Goals - Kick Japan off the mainland, take Japan.
    USA Minor Goals - Take some islands from Japan, help out in Africa if needed.

    Any specific tactics we come up with are going to need to fit into these goals.
    This certainly isn’t the only possible approach, but I think its a good summary if the USA is going 90% + after Japan.

    The other strategy (that some of you guys were kind of developing above) is what I would call a Half-A$$ed Japan Crush, where all three Allies go partially after Japan. The goal here would be for them to do just enough to keep Germany in stalemate, sending everything else that was not used for that purpose against Japan. But when you look at that idea compare to the goals above, all we are really talking about is shifting some Majors and Minors around, so they still present a good working frame.

    Well if nothing else, you get a glimpse at how the hamsters run on the little wheel in my brain! 😮



  • Very well written. What I propose is simply keeping Germany in check (your last alternative) and use all remaining forces to stop Japan and ride the IPC count to victory. However, the main deal here is Africa. Like you said, if Africa falls - so does the game. If you can bottle the Germans in Europe, keeping their income at 28-25 (along with some good SBR) - then you easily keep Germany in check (using the VATB Theory of Infantry on Defense). However, since UK has to attack Japan UK1, it cannot possibly counterattack Germany should they take Egypt. So therein lies the big question.



  • Now here is a quick thought on why Kill Japan First is officially a Big Fat Waste of Time in a balanced game against a good Axis player:

    Look at how hard it is for the Allies, 3 on 1, to crush Germany when Germany is being fully defensive and buying 95% infantry.
    Now take away half of the pressure Germany gets from Russia, half of the pressure Germany gets from the UK, and make Germany an island. 😮

    Not 100% accurate, but you get the picture… :lol:


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