Mountainous/snowy defender bonus


  • Upkeep is only for units traveling into or thru the Sahara desert. The cost is paid on the turn following your units moving into these territories so you don’t have to save money if you change your mind in a turn.


  • by the way in AARHE you collect income at the beginning of your turn, you pay then upkeep before purchases

    Imperious Leader, in the latest AARHE file
    *you are not allowed to not pay
    *if you can’t pay its carried forward
    *and nothing happens if you can’t pay

    Pay 1 IPC for every unit occupying a desert terrain or transport. Pay 1 IPC for every land unit offloaded in an amphibious assault or airborne drop during your last turn. If you don’t have enough income to pay the balance will be carried to next turn.

    need any adjustments?

    maybe units not paid should not move?
    but that makes them stay in the desert and the costs goes up and then suddenly you pay a big bill
    sort of weird

    maybe if you don’t pay they can’t move, balance not carried forward
    second tiem around they die (surrender/disband/etc)

    again to avoid weirdness
    maybe airborne drop costs should be paid in real time


  • Yea disregard my post. Your correct.


  • what about commenting on potential adjustments?


  • Imperious Leader, in the latest AARHE file
    *you are not allowed to not pay
    *if you can’t pay its carried forward
    *and nothing happens if you can’t pay

    Pay 1 IPC for every unit occupying a desert terrain or transport. Pay 1 IPC for every land unit offloaded in an amphibious assault or airborne drop during your last turn. If you don’t have enough income to pay the balance will be carried to next turn.

    need any adjustments?

    maybe units not paid should not move?
    but that makes them stay in the desert and the costs goes up and then suddenly you pay a big bill
    sort of weird.

    ++++ if you didn’t allocate resources for tasks that require upkeep you MUST pay for it in any event on your following turn.

    maybe if you don’t pay they can’t move, balance not carried forward
    second tiem around they die (surrender/disband/etc)

    ++++ no no too complicated… keep it simple.

    again to avoid weirdness
    maybe airborne drop costs should be paid in real time.

    Yes these however are not upkeep. Id rather remove the moniker “upkeep” and replace with “Logistical Cost”


  • ++++ if you didn’t allocate resources for tasks that require upkeep you MUST pay for it in any event on your following turn.

    yes you must pay
    its is the rules

    what I am referring to is that if you didn’t have money to pay

    ++++ no no too complicated… keep it simple.

    yes want to keep it manageable
    just that I found a situation not covered as above

    Yes these however are not upkeep. Id rather remove the moniker “upkeep” and replace with “Logistical Cost”

    thats fine, we don’t actually mention the word “upkeep”

    so what does mean?
    do you agree with paying for airborne drop same turn rather than next turn?


  • I feel for attacks you need to pay for airborne and invasions first.

    for movement in Sahara you can pay current turn (in advance) or next turn.

    Because movement is less burdensome on economy than offensive actions.


  • yeah so pay for airborne drops and invasions in advance
    if you don’t end up doing it you get the money back yeah?

    so what about unable to pay for Sahara? those units cannot attack this turn?


  • Right they cant attack. they can only move correct. make it so.


  • Terrain favour the defender

    Defending infantry dug-in and are more protectet than the assaulting infantry that run on feet and are exposed to explotions and fire. And this is why it takes 3 infantry units to successfully attack 1 defending infantry units. But firepower also count, so a unit with heavy artillery and tanks can attack a unit wich have more men but no heavy weapons. Also an elite unit with highly trained men can attack a bigger unit with less trained men. But against equal units, the 3-to-1 rule is applying.

    Now extreme terrain like mountains, swamps, forests and snow work in many ways.

    *Mountains is impassable, and all movements are concentratet to passes, wich are easy to defend. The defender can simply blow up the pass and nobody can move through. And attacking a pass that is defendet will cost high price. That is why nobody ever attacked through the Brenner Pass. I have been on vacation in the Alps, so I know.

    As for the mountains in north Norway, the passes are closed by snow in the winter, and in the summer the passes turn into swamps with lots of mosquitos. The Norwegian mountains also are cut by fjords and rivers, so its very difficult to travel there even in peace-time. I should know since I served my time in the Norwegian Military Forces up there.

    *Moving supplies through terrain with mountains, forests, swamps and snow are extremely difficult. Just look at the Northern Front in 1941, the German attack against Murmansk got booged down after 10 miles, at the river Litza, because it was impossible to move supplies there. As there is no roads up there, only a few muddy dirt-roads, all supplies had to be on ships, or carried on horse-back. So the gebirgs-jaegers didn’t have horses, and had to carrie everything on back-pack on their own feets. And when the russians attacked in 1944, they used rein-deers to carry supplies.

    Most of the men serving up north did not die from bullets. They died from frostbite and cold, freezing to death, or starving from lack of supplies. In the summer they got eaten by mosquitoes. Even if the winter is only 5 months, the temp goes below -40 C in this period, and people simply freese to death. You should try this yourselves before comparing Norway to central europe.

    *Snow works this way. In Finland and north Russia there is forest. This territories have dirt-roads and swamps and marshes, making the movement difficult. During winter, the snow actually makes it easyer to cross frozen marshes and rivers and minefields, and the snow also make artillery barrage less useful. All attacks must be done on skies, making man-to-man combat common.

    How to put this into rules

    1. All defending units in mountains defend on 4 or less all time.
    2. All defending units in forest/snow defend on 3 or less, all time.
    3. All defending units in capitols defend on 3 or less all time, not just the first round.
    4. Defenders in plain and clear terrain defend as usual OOB

    Also all units move only 1 space in territories with mountains, forest/snow and capitols.

    I would like to split up the territories with terrain more, making Norway 3 or 4 spaces and Finland 2 or 3 spaces, to reflect the difficulties of moving in areas without roads or communicaation lines. But some people do it the other way, they split up little tiny UK-island into 5 areas, and make huge Norway and Finland one space. Thats bedlam if you ask me


  • I suggest that units defend on 3 or less in territories with snow, because the cold will accumulate casualties.

    293. Inf.division reported this losses for 16 nov to 31 dec 1941:
    217 dead, 533 woundet and 99 missing in combat
    806 sick and 330 frostbite.

    So the division lost more of its fighting power to sickness and frostbite because of cold weather, than in actual combat. Now during the summer, the division would have lost men only to combat, and this would best be modelled in A&A games by let units defend on 2 or less in summer, and 3 or less in winter.

    During winter 41/42 the Germans lost 280 000 men to frostbite, and during winter 42/43 they only lost 142 000 men to frostbite. This is because in the last winter they dug into fortified positions, and fortified positions = less frostbite. Modelling this into A&A games with inf attack at 1, and defend on 3 or less in snow. Snow and terrain favour the defender, always.

    All info from http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/


  • that a good source. I go with that.


  • …your last 10 applauds come from me, my Hun friend  :-D


  • This is a pic from Northern Norway, and it was in this terrain 6.Gebirgsarmee was fighting 14. Red Army. It is no roads here, and all supplies are carried by foot or on horse. This terrain favour the defender. Just imagine an attack upside this ridge.

    All units in mountain terrain should defend on 4 or less


  • +2 defense modifier? Id rather have each unit take 2 hits to kill ( but you must allocate a HIT unit first if their is one before you select a SECOND hit unit)

    how bout that?

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